Panning not Panning

[King Burton]

Wrestling with this for months. Pan doesn't pan L/R. It fades volume to 0 as a volume control. Want to use 0 Center, Balance control. Switched to every setting no results. Converted track mono to stereo, +/- interleave every possible way.

 

I'm at a loss. Any ideas?

Cheers

King Burton

[King Burton]

**** SOLVED ****It was the interface!! New one came in this pm, installed, and now I am back in action guys!!!!

Back to work.

Cheers all.

King

[reginaldStjohn]

If you post a small project someone might be able to open it and try it out. Or at least a picture of your tracks and console view.

Make sure you don't have your tracks set to mono interleave, also any busses that they go to should be in stereo interleave. You should see two meter led strips for stereo tracks and busses.  When panning do the two meter levels show a panning effect?

If you have plugins on the tracks bypass them all and see if it makes a difference.

Make sure your main outs are stereo. Some interfaces allow changing the outputs from stereo to mono.

[bitflipper]

Is the issue with a single track, or with the entire mix?

Assuming a single track, the symptom you describe sounds like a stereo track with information on only one side. That can be because it was initially recorded as stereo but with audio on only one channel, or it can be caused by a mono plugin (or an incompatible combination of stereo and mono effects).

If you don't want to post a test project, a screenshot might provide the needed clue.

[JnTuneTech]

Stereo Panning is dealt with differently in different apps, and even the electronics they emulate. I may be wrong, but by default I think CbB stereo audio track panning does just actually reduce relative volume levels of the stereo pair, rather than what you may be looking for (OP described as "0 center").

I have used several methods to enhance panning of a stereo source. If for instance the VST instrument I am using offers it's own panning controls, that may work differently, and may even be automatable. Otherwise, there are many plugins - they usually come under that category of spatial enhancement - and can offer items such as "width" and phase manipulation which are all part of what could be called stereo panning.

If I only need the stereo material panned full left or right, for instance, I use the Panipulator module in the Cakewalk ProChannel, turn on mono (summing), and then pan to the desired location. That of course removes the stereo you may want to keep some of.

The initial stereo spatial (& delay) fx plugin I have used, -as part of what was Sonar for some time now in fact, is Channel Tools. It will allow you to choose volume, width, and placement of each stream (i.e. L & R) of stereo audio material, as well as other items. There are also some free VST FX plugins out there that do similar things. -Maybe that is what you are looking for?

P.S. If you have a stereo file with placement issues, etc., the Channel Tools plugin can also help you analyze the state of the stereo stream you are working on, to better figure out what to do with that.

Edited February 23, 2023 by JnTuneTech
added tip for usage of Channel Tools for analysis.

[King Burton]

Well, sorry I don't know how to post test project but here are screen shots focusing on channel 1 VOX. Moving pan knob to far left = full volume. To the right decreases volume until off at hard right.

[King Burton]

So you know, this is what I go by:

To change panning laws

1.

Go to Edit > Preferences > Audio - Driver Settings.

2.

In the Stereo Panning Law field, choose one of these options:

(Default) 0 dB center, sin/cos taper, constant power. This choice causes a 3 dB boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.

-3dB center, sin/cos taper, constant power. This choice causes no boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and 3dB dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.

0dB center, square-root taper, constant power. This choice causes a 3 dB boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.

-3dB center, square root taper, constant power. This choice causes no boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and 3dB dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.

-6dB center, linear taper. This choice causes no boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and 6dB dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.

0 dB center, balance control. This choice causes no boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.

3.

Click OK.

My preference is in bold

Edited February 23, 2023 by King Burton

[King Burton]

Thanks Bitflipper. While I'm addressing one track here, it is project wide across all projects I have done in a year. Haven't worried about it until recently now I really need it.

Also, changed interleave back & forth, converted mono track to stereo back and forth. Pan knob is just a volume knob.

Edited February 23, 2023 by King Burton

[57Gregy]

What are the pannings in all those take lanes?

[JnTuneTech]

Just a thought - If it is not an issue with any other mono track, then perhaps the input to the track is one of those items that behaves oddly when used on a mono track? I have had that happen a few times in the past, on a stereo audio device channel input going (live input monitoring) to a mono track. -Does any other mono track you have also get this problem? Mono tracks sent to stereo outputs should indeed pan simply using the panning rule as you say. It is confusing to diagnose from afar.

Interesting that - In your screen cap the source for the Vox melo L seems to be an ASIO Presonus - don't know if that was a stereo pair or single channel input, - even so, it does look as though the wave display shows only a mono track, and it's already recorded. You did name the track L (for left I assume), and only panning far left works - very interesting... Not sure what to say, if all the routing is typical, the pan should not result in just a volume change, as you say. Only trying to pan a stereo track with left only material should get that result, normally. Hmm, the devil is usually in the details!

[King Burton]

?? Take Lanes?? No take lanes. They are tracks. I never make a project with everything centered. That means your project is 1950s MONO.

[King Burton]

JnTuneTech - what you see has worked for years. Now it doesn't. P-Firestudio is versatile. 4-stereo or 8-mono. I suppose I could, now the track is done, change to np input. Would change the fact track is displayed as mono.

I think it is VOODOO!!! Somebody - Somewhere - is waving a chicken around.

Edited February 23, 2023 by King Burton

[JnTuneTech]

Indeed - I have one of the older 8 channel Presonus Firestudio Project, works fine. -Sorry that these answers have not been hitting the mark so far. -And, I guess what bitflipper suggested about posting a test project might be a bit tough, but sometimes reproducing these things to analyze them can only be done "hands on". I have tried to reproduce what you are experiencing, on a few projects, but not getting that error.   -Hang in there! Lots of good folks check in here, give it some time.

[King Burton]

J nTuneTech - Been using Cakewalk 15 years maybe. Learned just sittin' and piddling with it. NEARLY everyone has been absolute PROs and generous with advise. It's why I hang out here.

Thanks for the input and chat J. Run into you again soon pard.

[bitflipper]

2 hours ago, King Burton said:

Pan knob is just a volume knob.

Panning in Cakewalk works like the balance knob on a stereo, which is two ganged volume controls wired in reverse of one another. Literally just two complementary volume knobs. So yeh, the pan knob is literally just a volume knob. But there are two of them.

Although this can get weird with some stereo tracks, for mono tracks it's normally exactly what you want. You are literally adjusting the levels (volume) of the track's left and right outputs.  With a mono track and mono interleave, you should always have some information in both the left and right track outputs unless the pan slider is at 100%.

So normally, as you push the slider to the left, you are turning down the right until all you hear is the left channel. If the track then becomes silent, it means there was no left channel information.

How can you have a track with no left or no right information? If it's mono, you normally won't. But you can if it's a stereo track that only has information on one side. And that is a frequent mistake. When you create a new audio track, it defaults to stereo. If you then plug your guitar into a channel on your interface and hit record, everything looks fine - but you are recording only half of a stereo track. When you attempt to pan it to the silent side, well, it goes silent.

Maybe that's not what's happening; it's not possible to tell without the project or at least a screenshot of it.

[King Burton]

Thanks for the reply Bit. Sent a couple screen shots earlier of a sample project with the intention of focusing on a single track. If I resolve that, then I have about 30 projects to revisit to resolve. Worked in electronics manufacturing for 35 yrs. You are correct about how pan works. So let me try to describe again the issue. It's far simpler than you think.

Console view. Mono track. Mono interleave. Stereo interleave output. Pan law is 0 Balance.  Start Pan setting at center. Sound in both ears. Turn knob to hard left = slight volume increase in both ears. Turn knob to hard right = volume off. Pan knob is not acting as a pan but a volume control. Used Cakewalk like this 15 yrs and worked fine. Issues a a while back required a brute force delete of Cakewalk and clean reinstall. That's when I noticed this and honestly been too busy to address. What's leaving me wringing my hands is I'm in the middle of a paying project and can't afford the down time uninstalling and reinstalling. Thought it might be something silly as a box not checked. Looks like bigger than I thought.

Regardless I highly appreciate you assist. You are very kind to respond.

King

[scook]

If these projects were created prior to SONAR 8.5.2 it may be necessary to set PanLawCompatMode to 1 in AUD.ini

[JnTuneTech]

Well, the screen caps provided did help me see something you might look into on your system. I have been running some tests, and while I can't get the exact behavior you describe - it gets scarily close. I will explain a bit later.

For now, I suggest you take that same misbehaving project from the screenshot you provided, and save a backup of it as is first. Then with one version or another (your choice!) open it again, and turn off Offset Mode.  -I can see from the screenshot that it is on in that screenshot example project. -Then try playing around with the pan on the mono track(s) that won't pan again, try also switching Offset Mode on & off, testing, and let us know your results.

 

So, I have had some past experiences with Offset Mode in Sonar that I had purposely forgot about. I hadn't used it recently, or at all since CbB. Yesterday, after the discussions here above, I happened to be watching a video about various Cakewalk tips, and that particular tool came up. Then I remembered some of the gotchas I experienced using it myself, and decided to re-examine the sceeenshots above. And, holy split, yes, it was on in that screenshot.

Now, I have tested a few projects on my current CbB implementation to try and repeat what is described. And while I can't get exactly that, I do get some unsettling results. Maybe some of the Cakewalk Pros here can help explain why some of the results I got happen? For instance:

If I load a new "Basic" project template in CbB (current version), import a mono audio clip into the Audio track, and pan it, everything is fine. Works like you expect. However, though I could no longer find the shortcut listed in the current CbB documentation, I tried what I recall from the past, which is pressing the "o" key, while I was in track & console view. Viola, I hear my control surface faders slide, and onscreen the fader & pan values all go to zero. -Plus, there is now the "+" and "%" items in the console track display, which I recall painfully, means we are now in Offset Mode. -I panned the audio track full left, playback confirmed the change audibly and in the meters. -Then, I turned off Offset Mode (pressed "o" once again), and the display & my control surface all went back to my previous settings for pan & volume. -However - When I played the track, the audio only came out of the left, audibly and in the meters, and did so regardless of what I did with the pan knob. -So, it was very similar to what the OP here is describing. Backwards, but close, as the problem occurs with Offset Mode turned off after being on for me. -No can pan any more.

 

So, it gets more confusing in my research: So far, in my search of the current CbB documentation, I couldn't find Offset Mode easily. The one passage I found seemed to imply it is only applicable for automation - when using envelopes. But hey, I am able to toggle it on and off regardless of any automation being present in the project. But, -but- ... if I try the keyboard shortcut with a project created & saved in say, X1 days, lo and behold, the keyboard shortcut no longer works. (Side note, I think I got into the mess I made of a project once long ago, by accidentally pressing the "o" key, then trying to reset the mix levels visually, and so on. [Reminds me of the dialogue in Yellow Submarine between the Old Fred & Ringo characters - "Whatever you do - don't press the red button!  -What? This button?? (as he presses it)"...] -OK, again I digress. Anyway, do be careful trying this stuff at home kids..

Anyway, what is with this tool? It does currently have a place on the toolbar Mix Module in CbB, and it also works for me to toggle it on & off regardless of any automation present. And there is a warning in the documentation about the adverse effects possibilities - which BTW sound very close to what the OP here is experiencing. Could our OP here have an older project version that causes this odd behavior in conjunction with Offset Mode?

 

-Just wondering, maybe this info can help.  -One other suggestion - load up a new basic project, find and import a mono audio file, and try the panning in a clean project, see if that still exhibits the same problem on your system. -Also, do be careful with using Offset Mode in an important project. -My suggestions anyway!

[scook]

32 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

For now, I suggest you take that same misbehaving project from the screenshot you provided, and save a backup of it as is first. Then with one version or another (your choice!) open it again, and turn off Offset Mode. 

good eyes

[King Burton]

WOW!!!!  Uh. . . .I don't even know what Offset Mode is or does!!! Don't know where to even locate it!! Quick look on Document says click it on/off (???) not what the button / icon is. Searched hard my workspace but nothing I can see. So, where is it and how would I know it's on by my screenshot?        BTW - yudamain

- - - - - - -  - - -  - - -  -  -  -  -

Found it. It was not in my workspace. For one project turned on, another off.  ???  I did as recommended but no change. I suspect uninstall and reinstall in my future. LOTA WORK on my part. Reported to to support. They referred me to this thread.  sigh

[JnTuneTech]

Yes - well, glad you found it, to be sure. -One thing about it - in my tests, both past and present, if you have it turned on in a project, and then save that project, you can't get back to the same mix without it always on ever again. -Unless I am missing something with how it works.  -Every mix I try with it, once I turn it on, and say pan something all the way to one side, I cannot get back and ever pan the track again without Offset mode engaged! (yes, I know you are getting the problem with it on, not the reverse). -Still sounds like a stereo stream routing problem to me though anyway, I have to say.

Be careful, in any case. I remember in one old project, I had to completely re-create the tracks with the stuck pans & fades, and then re-import the audio (which is almost impossible with multiple edits and/or envelopes, etc.).

-Maybe a re-format will help, maybe not. It may be a per-project setting that is wonky, and in that case, ouch. -You still should try a clean new blank project, and see if the problem persists. -My 2 cents anyway.  I sure understand your pain though!