Michael Kleiner Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 I'm using violins from the BBC Symphony Orchestra (Spitfire Audio Plug-In) and wanted to add a gradual velocity change. For some reason it's not working (it works with instruments from other plug-ins in the same project). What could be wrong or is there any way to add this effect another way, maybe a plug-in that could do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 (edited) Perhaps it is the BBC Symphony Orchestra Library that is not velocity sensitive or responding to the velocity changes... I've seen it before with some libraries that may have several different velocity scales or settings... Edited January 17, 2023 by SirWillyDS12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Pick your flavor: https://d1t3zg51rvnesz.cloudfront.net/p/files/product-manuals/4400/1662032975/BBCSODiscover_Manual_v2.1.pdf https://d1t3zg51rvnesz.cloudfront.net/p/files/product-manuals/4125/1648650149/BBCSOCore_Manual_v2.0.pdf https://d1t3zg51rvnesz.cloudfront.net/p/files/product-manuals/4126/1648649726/BBCSOPro_Manual_v2.0.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kleiner Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 11 hours ago, Byron Dickens said: Pick your flavor: https://d1t3zg51rvnesz.cloudfront.net/p/files/product-manuals/4400/1662032975/BBCSODiscover_Manual_v2.1.pdf https://d1t3zg51rvnesz.cloudfront.net/p/files/product-manuals/4125/1648650149/BBCSOCore_Manual_v2.0.pdf https://d1t3zg51rvnesz.cloudfront.net/p/files/product-manuals/4126/1648649726/BBCSOPro_Manual_v2.0.pdf Yes I already looked though that but doesn't seem to be in there. So I guess it's not possible. Is there any Plug-In I could use (I mean, changing the overall volume in the mixer is possible, so there should be a way to make a gradual change right?)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tim Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Velocity works with BBC SO Core from memory (not in front of the machine at the moment), but I'd probably tend to automate expression and volume on the MIDI track rather than velocity for dynamics control anyway, personally. I do know for sure that legato strings especially respond to lighter touch and it adds in slides between notes, so I'd be surprised if other instruments and other editions of BBC don't respect velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 It's worth mentioning that velocity is a property of the note event itself, not a CC (continuous controller). So changing a velocity envelope after the note has been initially sounded will have no affect whatsoever. As @Lord Tim mentioned, volume (CC #7) and expression (CC #11) can also be automated and are continuous controllers. Even so, depending on the VSTi, volume automation may not be picked up by notes that already playing. Expression usually does affect playing notes, assuming the VSTi supports it. If properly implemented, Expression should give the same effect as changing the velocity while the note is playing - i.e. you'll hear tonal differences as well as a volume difference. Volume however only affects the volume. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Michael Kleiner said: Yes I already looked though that but doesn't seem to be in there. So I guess it's not possible. Is there any Plug-In I could use (I mean, changing the overall volume in the mixer is possible, so there should be a way to make a gradual change right?)? Like most orchestral libraries, this is done with mod wheel. The documentation states as much. Velocity can not be used because it is a one time per note event and not a continuous controller. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just tested the velocity in BBCSO Discover and Core here. The Woodwinds, Brass, and Strings do not respond to velocity. The Percussion section does. Cakewalk will record the velocity sent from your controller for each note on event, or any edits that you make to velocity via the controller pane in the piano roll. But only the BBCSO Percussion will respond to the sent velocity. Use the mod wheel to control the dynamics slider in the Spitfire plugin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tim Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 @abacab When you say "doesn't respond" do you mean like what we were saying in that it won't work like a continuous controller, or do you mean it has no effect at all? In BBCSO Core, try out Violins 1 Legato with both a heavy touch and a light touch and you should get very different sounds playing them in a legato style. They won't *change* velocity if you draw in velocity automation over the duration of the note, of course, since it doesn't work like that, but it should be doing something for the initial note if you play it louder or quieter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Lord Tim said: When you say "doesn't respond" do you mean like what we were saying in that it won't work like a continuous controller, or do you mean it has no effect at all? In BBCSO Core, try out Violins 1 Legato with both a heavy touch and a light touch and you should get very different sounds playing them in a legato style. On my end it doesn't matter if I play Violins 1 Legato with a light or heavy touch on the keys. Same sound as far as velocity any way I strike the key, but the legato is there. Edit: it seems to be a variable feature based on the specific articulations being used. I was only testing the "longs" earlier. It seems that the other articulations such as "staccato" or "pizzicato" do respond to velocity. Edited January 18, 2023 by abacab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tim Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 15 minutes ago, abacab said: On my end it doesn't matter if I play Violins 1 Legato with a light or heavy touch on the keys. Same sound as far as velocity any way I strike the key, but the legato is there. OK that's weird, that definitely works for me. I wonder what we have set up that's different to each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 15 minutes ago, Lord Tim said: OK that's weird, that definitely works for me. I wonder what we have set up that's different to each other? Well the velocity is being received at the DAW correctly from the keyboard used, an Arturia KeyLab 61 MkII. It just seems that BBCSO "long" articulations do not respond to velocity. I checked this with Cakewalk 2022.11 and Studio One 5.5.2 Pro, and got the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tim Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, abacab said: Well the velocity is being received at the DAW correctly from the keyboard used, an Arturia KeyLab 61 MkII. It just seems that BBCSO "long" articulations do not respond to velocity. I checked this with Cakewalk 2022.11 and Studio One 5.5.2 Pro, and got the same results. Yeah, weird! This is what I'm seeing/hearing: Exactly the same MIDI data notes-wise, using BBCSO Core, Violins 1, on the Legato articulation. The only difference is in the first clip, all of the note velocities are set to 127, and on the second one, I'm playing MUCH softer. You can definitely hear how the notes slur more on the second example. There's no loudness change - you'd use expression or volume for that - but velocity is definitely doing something for me. I didn't try the Long articulation, but I'd suggest that a lot of instruments and articulations would just kind of ignore velocity unless there was a reason to use it, like the Legato articulation does. From memory, some of the woodwind Legato ones work similar, but strings is where I'm remembering seeing it most without getting in and doing some proper tests. COMPLETELY UNRELATED OBSERVATION: Have any of you guys noticed the legato violins are slightly flat on some notes, especially around the 4th octave? We're tuned to Eb as a band so we tend to write in E (flat) a lot, and Eb4 is awful. Argh. It's driving me crazy! Edited January 18, 2023 by Lord Tim Clearly my typing skills could use some articulation too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 9 hours ago, Lord Tim said: Exactly the same MIDI data notes-wise, using BBCSO Core, Violins 1, on the Legato articulation. The only difference is in the first clip, all of the note velocities are set to 127, and on the second one, I'm playing MUCH softer. You can definitely hear how the notes slur more on the second example. There's no loudness change - you'd use expression or volume for that - but velocity is definitely doing something for me. I didn't try the Long articulation, but I'd suggest that a lot of instruments and articulations would just kind of ignore velocity unless there was a reason to use it, like the Legato articulation does. From memory, some of the woodwind Legato ones work similar, but strings is where I'm remembering seeing it most without getting in and doing some proper tests. I am hearing the legato articulation, just no detectable volume differences with a harder attack. So the velocity is likely triggering a different sample layer for that articulation. But in the the case of the longs, I suspect there are no velocity layers included, as there is probably no reason to have them when you can use other controllers for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kleiner Posted January 18, 2023 Author Share Posted January 18, 2023 Ok thank you all. Pretty new to cakewalk didn't know that there are other ways to make a crescendo/diminuendo. So I tried to change the cc 7 volume, but I can only drag whole sections horizontally. And some posts here are reffering to a "mod wheel". I guess I know much too little yet so will go and try to find more tutorials and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user 905133 Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 (edited) On 1/16/2023 at 6:45 PM, Michael Kleiner said: I'm using violins from the BBC Symphony Orchestra (Spitfire Audio Plug-In) and wanted to add a gradual velocity change. For some reason it's not working (it works with instruments from other plug-ins in the same project). What could be wrong or is there any way to add this effect another way, maybe a plug-in that could do it? 1 hour ago, Michael Kleiner said: Ok thank you all. Pretty new to cakewalk didn't know that there are other ways to make a crescendo/diminuendo. So I tried to change the cc 7 volume, but I can only drag whole sections horizontally. And some posts here are reffering to a "mod wheel". I guess I know much too little yet so will go and try to find more tutorials and stuff. CC stands for Continuous Controller. To make gradual changes to notes that have already started, you need to send a stream of CC data. Not sure what you are trying to drag, but a mod wheel or any other knob or slider on any controller can be used to enter a stream of changing CC values. If you don't have a controller, you could use automation lanes. Edited January 18, 2023 by User 905133 edits for the sake of clarity; added the original post for context 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tim Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 4 hours ago, abacab said: I am hearing the legato articulation, just no detectable volume differences with a harder attack. So the velocity is likely triggering a different sample layer for that articulation. But in the the case of the longs, I suspect there are no velocity layers included, as there is probably no reason to have them when you can use other controllers for that. Yeah, agreed! Looks like we were actually on the same page with this all along. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 5 hours ago, Michael Kleiner said: Ok thank you all. Pretty new to cakewalk didn't know that there are other ways to make a crescendo/diminuendo. So I tried to change the cc 7 volume, but I can only drag whole sections horizontally. And some posts here are reffering to a "mod wheel". I guess I know much too little yet so will go and try to find more tutorials and stuff. Here is a MIDI CC (Continuous Controller ) list. https://www.presetpatch.com/midi-cc-list.aspx The "mod wheel" is the modulation wheel found next to the pitch bend wheel on most MIDI synths and controller keyboards. The mod wheel sends MIDI CC#1 to your MIDI device. In the case of BBCSO that controls the second slider in the BBCSO plugin UI. The tool tips in BBCSO indicate their slider is called "Dynamics". In the case of the long Violins, moving the mod wheel (CC#1) moves that "Dynamics" slider as it changes the volume of the sound. It seems to have no effect on the violin articulations that do respond to velocity layers, i.e. the spicatto, pizzicato, and staccato, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kleiner Posted January 18, 2023 Author Share Posted January 18, 2023 35 minutes ago, abacab said: Here is a MIDI CC (Continuous Controller ) list. https://www.presetpatch.com/midi-cc-list.aspx The "mod wheel" is the modulation wheel found next to the pitch bend wheel on most MIDI synths and controller keyboards. The mod wheel sends MIDI CC#1 to your MIDI device. In the case of BBCSO that controls the second slider in the BBCSO plugin UI. The tool tips in BBCSO indicate their slider is called "Dynamics". In the case of the long Violins, moving the mod wheel (CC#1) moves that "Dynamics" slider as it changes the volume of the sound. It seems to have no effect on the violin articulations that do respond to velocity layers, i.e. the spicatto, pizzicato, and staccato, etc. THANK YOU! This is working and what I was trying to do. And thank you everyone who replied here now I understand a whole lot more about this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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