If you were to do 70s Prog Rock today, how would you do it (production wise)?

[SuperFreq]

Suppose you were, say, Eddie Offord producing Yes 1971-1973. Fragile, Close to the Edge, Tales from Topographic Oceans. But the year is 2023.

You don't want to alienate young listeners by having a dated sound (more on "dated sound" below); you want to present it in a way that will capture even the average pop fan's ear. At least until you get to that 3 min drum solo on side 4 ?

What would you do differently?

Ok let's talk about the "dated sound" aspect. I'm not using that term negatively, I'm personally a huge fan of that 70s sound just like I think all Billie Holiday songs should be lo-fi like that dated 1940s sound. But you gotta admit, the average kid today will scroll past it on the radio dial just because it has that old sound. In other words, how would you do prog music with today's sound?

This is where it gets subjective so all thoughts are welcome. But I feel like today's sound has much crisper highs. Today's sound has more compression, and today's sound has instruments that are in your face, as opposed to the 70s prog wall of sound, or dreamscape, where the listener gets lost in the barrage of instrumentation--much like a symphony. So for starters, maybe we'd want to dial down or turn off all reverb, all delay, chorus, and all those 70s-80s effects designed to widen the sound. We would want to keep it tight and crisp.

Agree, disagree, alternate suggestions? I'm asking because I'm working on a very 70s-prog-influenced album, but I don't want to just mimic the 70s prog sound. I'd love to come up with something unique that this generation can call its own while retaining all the 70s prog awesomeness that led here.

Edited January 16, 2023 by SuperFreq

[hockeyjx]

I've said it before, but I am a HUGE fan of Devin Townsend and love his production style. I love little nuances that you can hear mostly when you are just listening in the dark or in the dark with headphones.

I think Dream Theater and many modern bands like them all have the same productions IMO, and sometimes the "wall of sound" add mystique to a song. But that's the artist's(re: yours) decision if they want that. Often, it has to do with whether they can "reproduce it live" ....I never cared that if I can create an awesome song, if I would need backing tracks/more musicians for live.  In my way of looking at it, I want to create a soundscape and am not concerned if that can be faithfully replicated live. The prog folk tend to be more of the "replicate faithfully with the band we have" type of people.

I particularly like the YES album sounds btw. You never know what listeners may like in terms of production, simply meaning every thing that is old becomes new and that may be in fashion again at some point(like records and flip phones are today). Follow your muse and posts some samples, you know you'll get quality feedback here!

Good luck!

[SuperFreq]

59 minutes ago, hockeyjx said:

I've said it before, but I am a HUGE fan of Devin Townsend and love his production style. I love little nuances that you can hear mostly when you are just listening in the dark or in the dark with headphones.

I think Dream Theater and many modern bands like them all have the same productions IMO, and sometimes the "wall of sound" add mystique to a song. But that's the artist's(re: yours) decision if they want that. Often, it has to do with whether they can "reproduce it live" ....I never cared that if I can create an awesome song, if I would need backing tracks/more musicians for live.  In my way of looking at it, I want to create a soundscape and am not concerned if that can be faithfully replicated live. The prog folk tend to be more of the "replicate faithfully with the band we have" type of people.

I particularly like the YES album sounds btw. You never know what listeners may like in terms of production, simply meaning every thing that is old becomes new and that may be in fashion again at some point(like records and flip phones are today). Follow your muse and posts some samples, you know you'll get quality feedback here!

Good luck!

Thanks I might do that very soon (post a song snippet for feedback). I've never listened to Devin Townsend but I'm off to do some research. And if you can believe it, I've never really listened to an entire Dream Theater album, only a few songs I may have caught on Youtube. You're right, I think their schtick is the wall of sound, and it works for them. It's interesting to note that DT rose to prominence by contradicting the minimalist "unplugged" sound that would dominate late 80s-90s airplay. So I guess the takeaway is that you can't predict what will work based on generational trends alone.

Good point about how sometimes "old becomes new", and a great example of that might be the recent Beatles reissues from master tape. I haven't heard them all, but supposedly they worked hard to preserve the original sound, but just with a cleaner restoration of the mixes. And it seems to be gaining traction with fans both old & young.

Then again, they're the freakin Beatles. They've built up their street cred so they can sound like whatever they like. My concern is that a new artist hitting the scene with a debut album will immediately get labeled based on initial impressions. So the debut artist has to be careful not to sound like a cliché right out of the gate.

[SuperFreq]

1 hour ago, Lord Tim said:

People will label you (either fairly or not) whether you like it or not.

 

You're totally right about that, and it sucks because a lot of music critics go out of their way to create quippy labels because that's what gets them (the critics) their own recognition. Think of it, if a critic listened to your album and did a careful objective analysis of all the different influences, the article would read like molasses. But if a critic opens with a prominent "Wizards & Warlocks are alive and living in Germany!" that generates a buzz for their rag.

So it's a tough balancing act, how do you indulge your musical influences without sounding like you're trying to be just like them? One example is Greta Van Fleet who will forever be stamped as a Zeppelin rip off. I haven't even heard their music but I've heard so many grumbles & heckles that I'll never be able to give them a fair shake; they're labeled before I even heard them!

But you're right, at the end of the day ya just gotta go with what feels right, regardless of what people will say. If the music is good people will listen.

Thanks for the prog suggestions btw, Spock's Beard is the only one I've heard, so I got a ton of research ahead of me!

[Byron Dickens]

23 hours ago, SuperFreq said:

But you gotta admit, the average kid today will scroll past it on the radio dial just because it has that old sound

Not true at all.

[SuperFreq]

1 minute ago, Byron Dickens said:

Not true at all.

I stand by my statement because I witnessed it firsthand. Was out with a younger crowd, a girl was flipping through the radio dial and lands on Zeppelin Kashmir. Scrolls right past it. I said "whoa go back that's a classic!" She went back and everyone loved it. That's all I meant.

[Byron Dickens]

I have witnessed the exact opposite numerous times

[Xoo]

I doubt that was because of the production style...

[SuperFreq]

My point is that those kids, that demographic, is the target audience I'd like to reach. So I want to avoid having a production sound that would immediately pigeonhole me as an older generation. Sticking with the Kashmir example, the kids loved it after I told them it was worth a listen. But the conversation turned to "yeah I like the older stuff... sometimes..."

And I don't blame them. When I was a teenager I wasn't interested in songs that were made before I was born. Average teenagers want music that they can identify with as their own generation, not something that sounds like mom & dad's music.

Take for example Lorde's "Royals" released in 2013. That song, on paper, is so similar to Queen's "We will rock you" - take a  minimalist beat, throw an a capella vocal on top, build up to a thick, layered chorus.

But the production is entirely different; it has a distinctly 2010s sound - crisp highs, deep kick drum, heavily compressed vocals. It definitely sounded very new, even though the idea goes back to 1977.

I'd love to take it to the next step, go hardcore 70s prog, but I want that new production sound which will get kids interested. Hence this thread. What are your suggestions?

[jackson white]

prog rock for TikTok? 

taking on the attention deficit sounds like an interesting challenge, but jam bands seem to do pretty well across the 'generations' if that's the 'issue',  so perhaps more of a lifestyle play than a musical genre? 

(i really do not know what i'm talking about wrt to prog rock and will claim this is just Chat GPT staking a claim on public discourse)

[SuperFreq]

25 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

I think the "cool factor" is more going to come from marketing rather than production, honestly. If [insert current popular music artist star] starts playing 1920s flapper music, you better believe that every TikTok will have that as background music for the next year.

I didn’t think of that but you’re totally right. Prime example: Amy Winehouse did a lot of smoky lounge jazz stuff and it was hot with the kids. Of course she did have a modern production sound also, but I think mainly she had a great marketing strategy, a very “now” look & attitude that would’ve sold itself even if she were doing polka music.

[SuperFreq]

1 hour ago, jackson white said:

prog rock for TikTok? 

taking on the attention deficit sounds like an interesting challenge, but jam bands seem to do pretty well across the 'generations' if that's the 'issue',  so perhaps more of a lifestyle play than a musical genre? 

Hahaha man, that’s one thing I refuse to compromise on: the tiktok attention deficit thing. To me, the whole point of prog was to force the listener into an immersive experience lasting an entire album. So I guess that rules out promoting myself on tiktok or youtube shorts.

Attracting an audience through a lifestyle play does seem to bridge generations, but I kinda cringe at that strategy because it sorta diminishes the music while promoting the fad. Ever see that Sarah Silverman episode about jam bands? She gets up on stage and calls out the audience, telling them they’re only enjoying the show because they’re sky high on drugs. So she makes them all promise to come back the next night totally sober. And then they all realize the band sucks ?

Edited January 18, 2023 by SuperFreq

[Colin Nicholls]

If all my productions sounded as good as Fragile/Yes, I'd be very happy indeed.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

So, you want the sound of 70s prog rock without sounding like 70s prog rock? Then you'd be doing essentially fusion with some lyrics on top.

[Kevin Walsh]

The 70's yes sounds seem pretty pristine to me, with a pretty deft hand and a light touch on post processing, just great performances by incredibly talented artists at the top of their form.

The artistry in the mix lies in a wonderful balance of a lot of sounds, particularly with the drms and bass. I've seen yes perform many times and to my young ears their live sound and their recorded sound were pretty similar. 

Of course i may be way off base because i only have my ears to judge, i know little about how those seminal works were actually made.

I guess the prog works that i am most fond of  focuses on the musicianship of the performers and tries to capture the sounds the are making live rather than trying to apply a signature veneer in the mixing desk.

[Teegarden]

To come back to your title "If you were to do 70s Prog Rock today, how would you do it (production wise)?":

Since I very much like the sound of the Yes recording I would like to match it as far as my very limited recording engineer's skills let me.

I would use plugins with a good analog sound and reference plugins like Mastering the Mix Expose 2 and Reference 2, ADAPTR metric AB, Melda MCompare.
 

To my ears older recordings give less fatigue compared to the extreme compression and upmixing of drums and bass these days.

My kids teenage kids love the songs and sound of music from the fifties to the nineties (as well as a diverse range of more recent songs). I know many of their friends and class mates do too. So there shouldn't be any problem producing a new song sounding similar to those older hits.
 

[Bapu]

Get a copy of Steven Wilson "Hand. Cannot. Erase." and try to match that production. Simply stellar modern production of of modern prog rock.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Bapu

[Glenn Stanton]

TSO? saw a couple of their concerts - based significantly on late 18th century and early 19th century rock, but hey! what's old is new right? lol.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Glenn Stanton

[msmcleod]

To me, the biggest differences in modern sounding prog (and by that I mean modern prog rock bands such as Spock's Beard, Big Big Train, The Flower Kings etc.. rather than prog metal), are the vocals and drums.

The vocals in many 70's recordings are generally quieter in the mix than the up-front vocals of modern recordings.  Also the way the vocals are treated e.g. tight delay's or obvious reverbs in the 70's compared to the more detailed, drier (but not dry-sounding) vocals of today.

The drums, again, are not only quite often way back in the mix, they're also pretty cluttered/mono sounding (probably due to recording constraints and a bounce or two).  The kick and snare are far more prominent in modern productions, and the rest of the kit makes better use of the stereo space.

I was just listening to the 2004 remix of Genesis' Cinema Show (from "The Platinum Collection"), and it's far more modern sounding than the original 1973 recording.  Despite all the instrumentation being the same, it certainly doesn't sound old to me in the way the original does.

[bats brew]

i always find it's better to go for the sound in your head,

rather than emulating another era/style.

 

if you like 70's prog, just use your ears and break down your favorite recordings,

as to what was done then.

things were a lot simpler in the 70's,

because there just were not as many choices.

i use plugins that emulate older equipment, using K-18 as a basis for gain structuring.

dry drums (except for sections that need bigness, think, pink floyd TIME, and the drum intro...),

and favor more mono drums, with hard panning for overheads and toms.

smoother sounding guitars, that don't have a lot of high end crunch, and MUCH less gain, more room sounds than actual reverbs or delays.  analog style delays for solos, etc.

all analog keys. use MOOG sounds and ARP, Yamaha CS80, etc...

verb and delays on voices, but with a good amount of predelay.