CBB, MPE, MIDI 2.0 and Expressive Controllers Discussion

[RexRed]

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

Per-Output Instruments are a type of Instrument track in Cakewalk, not a type of VSTi,.

In Cakewalk you have three types of Instrument tracks:

Simple Instrument Tracks - a track strip that contains an Audio Track and a MIDI Track, but shows as one strip.  The output of the MIDI track is set to the VSTi MIDI input, and the Audio track input is connected to the first stereo pair of the VSTi outputs.  By default, the MIDI track is set to transmit on all channels (i.e. it plays back exactly what you recorded).

Split Instrument Tracks  - one or more separate MIDI tracks / Audio Tracks.  The  MIDI tracks outputs are set to the VSTi MIDI input, and the Audio Track inputs are connected to the output(s) of the VSTi audio output(s).  The MIDI and Audio tracks appear as separate tracks in the Track View.

Per-Output Instrument Tracks - These are a special type of Simple Instrument Track, where you have several combined Audio/MIDI tracks connected to a single VSTi. For each MIDI/Audio track pair, the MIDI output of the MIDI track part is set to a specific channel, and the Audio Input of the Audio track part is connected to a specific VSTi audio output.  This allows you to have several "Instrument Tracks" playing different sounds (and each having their own audio fx bin), but using a single VSTi instance.  For this to work correctly, you normally have to set the MIDI inputs and Audio outputs of each instrument within the VSTi itself.

In essence, a Per-Output Instrument Track is exactly the same as a Simple Instrument Track with the exception that it has it's MIDI output channel set to a single channel.

As MPE requires the use of all 16 MIDI channels,  you can't use Per-Output Instrument Tracks, because they're set to transmit on a single channel only.

Thank you MSMcleod for your detailed response!

It seems that what you are saying is that any sound can be driven by MPE as long as you route the Cakewalk MIDI tracks properly?

Edited January 12, 2023 by RexRed

[abacab]

2 hours ago, RexRed said:

It seems that what you are saying is that any sound can be driven by MPE as long as you route the Cakewalk MIDI tracks properly?

Not just any sound. Be aware that the VSTi instrument used must be MPE aware so that it can handle the MIDI correctly. So there are 3 important ingredients required: an MPE compatible controller, an MPE compatible host (DAW), and an MPE compatible VSTi instrument.

[RexRed]

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[azslow3]

16 hours ago, abacab said:

Not just any sound. Be aware that the VSTi instrument used must be MPE aware so that it can handle the MIDI correctly. So there are 3 important ingredients required: an MPE compatible controller, an MPE compatible host (DAW), and an MPE compatible VSTi instrument.

If I have understood the specification correctly... there is no "required" ingredients at all to use (or imitate) MPE ?

"MPE compatible host" just means the DAW can save (record, edit) Note and CC MIDI events with different channels into one track and deliver them to VSTi "as is" (without modifying MIDI channel in the events). I think (almost?) all DAWs can do that. For editing, a DAW should support convenient editing events with one particular MIDI channel (without that editing MPE recording will be nightmare).

Controller is not required, corresponding MIDI can be created in MIDI editor. But converting recording from not MPE keyboard to "MPE compatible" can be boring (till the DAW supports corresponding scripting... theoretically possible with CAL..).

If VSTi is not MPE aware, it will take 15 instances of the same VSTi with the same preset to implement MPE with it. Also MIDI has to be specially processed before feeding each instance. Note that such structure is rather hard to do in Cakewalk.

PS. depending from VSTi and DAW, special care may be required for switching on MPE (RPN 6 messages) and prevent switching it off (on stop).

-------------------------

Finally, I think everyone who want use MPE should read MPE specification instead of MPE advertisements.... MPE is rather simple "trick" to allow changes in several parameters per note. Original MIDI 1.0 has foreseen just one (Polyphonic After-touch). Current MPE defines 3. All that just to support keyboards with extra sensors per key.

[abacab]

3 hours ago, azslow3 said:

If I have understood the specification correctly... there is no "required" ingredients at all to use (or imitate) MPE ?

"MPE compatible host" just means the DAW can save (record, edit) Note and CC MIDI events with different channels into one track and deliver them to VSTi "as is" (without modifying MIDI channel in the events). I think (almost?) all DAWs can do that. For editing, a DAW should support convenient editing events with one particular MIDI channel (without that editing MPE recording will be nightmare).

Controller is not required, corresponding MIDI can be created in MIDI editor. But converting recording from not MPE keyboard to "MPE compatible" can be boring (till the DAW supports corresponding scripting... theoretically possible with CAL..).

If VSTi is not MPE aware, it will take 15 instances of the same VSTi with the same preset to implement MPE with it. Also MIDI has to be specially processed before feeding each instance. Note that such structure is rather hard to do in Cakewalk.

PS. depending from VSTi and DAW, special care may be required for switching on MPE (RPN 6 messages) and prevent switching it off (on stop).

-------------------------

Finally, I think everyone who want use MPE should read MPE specification instead of MPE advertisements.... MPE is rather simple "trick" to allow changes in several parameters per note. Original MIDI 1.0 has foreseen just one (Polyphonic After-touch). Current MPE defines 3. All that just to support keyboards with extra sensors per key.

That is perhaps an academic explanation, but which has no practical real-world use for a musician that just wants to buy a retail MPE keyboard and expect it to work with their existing sounds.

To run the an MPE controller out of the box it is recommended to select a VSTi that has already been tested and known to work with MPE. Earlier in this thread I provided lists from 2 leading MPE controller manufacturers that list many of these currently tested instruments. Following their recommendations would make it much easier for a first-timer to leap into MPE.

Cheers!

[azslow3]

On 1/13/2023 at 3:03 PM, abacab said:

That is perhaps an academic explanation, but which has no practical real-world use for a musician that just wants to buy a retail MPE keyboard and expect it to work with their existing sounds.

I was targeting "is any sound can be driven by MPE?" question. But you are right, my post is probably "too academic" for musicians... So I better list just practical points:

• MPE should be activated on keyboard and inside VSTi to work correctly. Knowing how that is done (and what can deactivate it) may avoid confusion.
• Original MIDI Polyphonic After-touch is not a part of MPE. Some other messages are used differently.  In other words,  MPE keyboard can be used with MPE unaware VSTi, but it should not be in MPE mode. The "sound" can be wrong otherwise.
• the "sound" produced by MPE compatible VSTi in MPE mode from  preset not designed for MPE may be not  the same as in conventional mode. That is VSTi (and preset) dependent. Also editing MPE recording can be more difficult then conventional recording (DAW dependent). In other words, it is probably better use (record) MPE mode only in case MPE is really used.

[abacab]

2 hours ago, azslow3 said:

the "sound" produced by MPE compatible VSTi in MPE mode from  preset not designed for MPE may be not  the same as in conventional mode.

That's possibly one reason why the manufacturer of the new Osmose keyboard opted to put an onboard synth in the keyboard. That way they have QA over the MPE presets onboard, as well as no need for plugins or a computer out of the box. Then it's up the user that wants to connect it as a controller to deal with the rest.

[RexRed]

It appears that with the proper setup Cakewalk and all VSTs by one method or another can be controlled through MIDI and channel/track setup to utilize all MPE output functions and these multiple tracks in Cakewalk can be frozen to a single audio file after edits are completed.

Just because it is complicated does not mean it does not work.

Cakewalk has for a long time had the ability to create templates of setups, so, a MPR based voice would theoretically only need to be set up once.

Perhaps switching instruments might require changing VSTs in each track and modifying the synth rack. 

These also could be saved as various Cakewalk templates for each VST.

I will say I am not a fan of Cakewalk templates.

I have created templates and had them become corrupted over time.

They get corrupted because VSTs get updated, or effects get installed in different places and Cakewalk itself gets updated and they simply become buggy. 

But my templates were VERY complex containing  multiple track mixing racks and bus effects mixing racks, prochannel setups.

Maybe I will try a template again someday and see if things have changed in that regard.

The problem lies in once you have created a song in a template it is kind of too late when the song begins to act funky and randomly close.   

It is like loading an old Sonar song, sometimes is it hit or miss and the song itself can be unstable. (Especially dealing with old V-vocal tracks that are not frozen or bounced.)

V-vocal should be a part of CBB setup as well as many old VSTs that were once offered IMHO.

But Cakewalk is free, and who can knock that?

Edited January 21, 2023 by RexRed

[abacab]

2 hours ago, RexRed said:

V-vocal should be a part of CBB setup as well as many old VSTs that were once offered IMHO.

If I'm not mistaken, V-vocal was a licensed Roland product that Cakewalk never owned.  It was removed from the Sonar installer beginning with Sonar X3 when Roland sold Cakewalk to Gibson. That was probably why Sonar switched over to Melodyne Essential at that point.

Edited January 21, 2023 by abacab

[Traveler]

I just received my Osmose a few days ago and I can confirm MPE is working great in Cakewalk!

I got it exclusively as a controller for Deckard's Dream (which accepts MPE or polyphonic aftertouch), and my other Black Corp synths. I'm sure the Osmose's onboard sounds are great, but I didn't get it for that.

The Osmose connects to the MIDI track with the MIDI In channel selected to <Omni>. MIDI Out goes to Deckard's Dream. MIDI Echo is turned on.

I also have <Key Aftertouch> and <Channel Aftertouch> selected in Preferences.

I did some test recordings and experimented with poly-aftertouch, velocity and individual key pitch bends. Every move on the Osmose was echoed to Deckard's Dream through Cakewalk. Cakewalk recorded all those moves, and placed a ton of controller data in Piano Roll (I'll need to decipher it and make an Instrument Definition). Playback was also good and all the nuances and inflections were intact.

I just wanted to give some real world experience with Cakewalk and MPE.

Cheers!

Reggie

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Traveler