RexRed Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 (edited) https://www.expressivee.com/2-osmose The era of MIDI 2.0, VST3 and MPE has arrived. How long will it take DAWS and VSTs to catch up to this current wave of expressive technology? I have over a million patches on my PC. How long before they can all be manipulated by MPE controllers in Cakewalk? Edited January 11, 2023 by RexRed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teegarden Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Thanks for posting this, I didn't know this keyboard. Checked all the videos about it: without exaggerating revolutionary! Love it, want it, need it? For many different expressions I use a TEControl usb midi breath & bite controller 2 which covers most of my needs, however, this seems much more intuitive and straightforward for a keyboard player. Is quite expensive at the moment, unfortunately. Would be nice if they also have a VST so you can have all these sounds in your DAW instead of needing to record it through audio inputs. Also, I prefer full size keyboards (88 or 76 keys). They don't seem to have more than four octaves yet. Let's hope CbB will be fully compatible with all new standards soon! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Teegarden said: Thanks for posting this, I didn't know this keyboard. Checked all the videos about it: without exaggerating revolutionary! Love it, want it, need it? For many different expressions I use a TEControl usb midi breath & bite controller 2 which covers most of my needs, however, this seems much more intuitive and straightforward for a keyboard player. Is quite expensive at the moment, unfortunately. Would be nice if they also have a VST so you can have all these sounds in your DAW instead of needing to record it through audio inputs. Also, I prefer full size keyboards (88 or 76 keys). They don't seem to have more than four octaves yet. Let's hope CbB will be fully compatible with all new standards soon! Exactly what you said! I would like a controller only version, as long as Cakewalk and my VSTs can understand the input! Thanks Teegarden for the comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 What is MBE? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 19 minutes ago, abacab said: What is MBE? I suspect they mean MPE: MIDI Polyphonic Expression. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 3 hours ago, Eddie said: I suspect they mean MPE: MIDI Polyphonic Expression. ? I guess that's clear from the content of the posts, but the thread title still has the "MBE" typo... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 Yes typo, sorry, I fixed it, thanks for the correction Abacab! ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) It seems that this MPE idea can be used even if a DAW does not support it. One simply needs to separate each note in each chord to a different synth rack track. Then the pitch bend wheel envelope would operate on each note separately. It would seem that any other layered effect could be applied separately on a per note basis as well. Much like how I already separate each percussion element on a general midi drum kit patch so I can treat each percussive element with its own parameters. Each note can have its own pan, prochannel strip, effects bin and ADSR etc... Edited January 11, 2023 by RexRed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) On 1/10/2023 at 12:42 PM, RexRed said: How long before they can all be manipulated by MPE controllers in Cakewalk? It looks like Cakewalk by BandLab supports MPE, according to this webpage at ROLI. https://support.roli.com/support/solutions/articles/36000037202-compatible-synths-daws-and-instruments And another list from LinnStrument support. https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/support-linnstrument-recommended-sounds So you would still be limited to using only MPE capable software synths. I don't have an MPE controller yet, but have been following the topic with interest for a few years. Edited January 11, 2023 by abacab 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 MPE requires the use of all 16 channels, so for MPE to work in CbB, make sure the Track MIDI channel is set to None - this will ensure that on playback, each MIDI event will be played back on its original MIDI channel. For VSTi's that support MPE, you can use either a Simple Instrument Track or a Split Instrument track (with a single MIDI track / single audio track). Per-Output Instrument tracks are unsuitable for MPE instruments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Teegarden said: Is quite expensive at the moment, unfortunately. It is also only 24 Voice Polyphony... Seems a little "weak", especially for almost 2 grand... My Korg 01W is 32 Voice Polyphony and it is almost 30 years old... Edited January 12, 2023 by SirWillyDS12 Sp -1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, SirWillyDS12 said: It is also only 24 Voice Polyphony... Seems a little "weak", especially for almost 2 grand... My Korg 01W is 32 Voice Polyphony and it is almost 30 years old... That is an interesting point SirWillyDS12, and I did not even check if it is multitimbral. I will purchase one of these when I am sure I can drive my other sounds with it, I assume a cheaper version of this will eventually come out. I just want the controller, not all the other stuff anyway. It possibly only has global stereo effects. Any card slot for user edited patches? I am a screen real-estate, in the box kind of person. I refuse to use a small faceplate to traverse layers and layers of parameters. I would like a PC patch editor for this and PC based sounds. I would buy one just to play around with it, mostly for pads and lead instruments. If I worked with cinematic soundtracks for films, this would be an instant buy. One of my friends is an accomplished keyboardist and they bought a large ROLI Seadboard and regretted it due to the learning curve. It was 1000 bucks new. This Osmose keyboard seems to have cleverly done away with that learning curve other than that the keys depress kind of deep. I am very tempted to buy one but I need to do more research first. It seems durable, I would like to play one first. I am very picky about my keys and their "pressure sensitive" keys. I bought a semi weighted keyboard controller and I dislike that I have to push so hard on the keys. I use it only because it is more compact for my desktop versus my full sized M-Audio Oxygen 49 (which I love the keys). None of the keyboards that I have tried lately have had good weighted key switches. They are velocity sensitive but have two states, on or off. So I am skeptical also. Edited January 12, 2023 by RexRed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, msmcleod said: For VSTi's that support MPE, you can use either a Simple Instrument Track or a Split Instrument track (with a single MIDI track / single audio track). Per-Output Instrument tracks are unsuitable for MPE instruments. I have to think about this part. (Per-Output Instrument tracks are unsuitable for MPE instruments.) Not sure exactly what that means. Which VSTs are Per-Output and which are not, and how can you tell? They all seem to have 16 channel dropdowns in Cakewalk tracks. Native Instruments? FM8? EastWest sounds? What about synths Falcon, Nexus, Omnisphere and VPS Avenger? Edited January 12, 2023 by RexRed typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 Check out the video halfway down the page. https://roli.com/products/seaboard/rise2 1300 bucks and they are made in, "batches". Next batch coming out in February. Decisions decisions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 Has MIDI 2.0 been released yet? Does Windows have MIDI 2.0 yet? Cakewalk? What changes have been made to the MIDI spec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promidi Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 hours ago, RexRed said: I have to think about this part. (Per-Output Instrument tracks are unsuitable for MPE instruments.) Not sure exactly what that means. Which VSTs are Per-Output and which are not, and how can you tell? Sampletank, UVI Workstation, Kontakt are example of vstis that are Per-Output. In these examples, a single instance can have multiple parts, with each part responding to a specific MIDI channel. Also, each part can be directed to a specific audio track. Because of this, I can see why "Per-Output Instrument tracks are unsuitable for MPE instruments". For me personally, I am looking forward to the greater controller resolution that MIDI 2.0 can potentially offer. Instead of 127 discreet values, we could benefit from 16384 (like you get with WHEEL events). Mine you, with some parameters, 127 discreet values is enough and does not cause audible stepping. For MPE handling of parameters on individual notes, we have already had the ability to do this via poly Polyphonic Aftertouch (even though editing is a pain). Some Arturia V Collection synths do actually respond to Polyphonic Aftertouch MIDI events (CS-80 V is an example) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) This video shows multi output from Kontakt, but it seems this is not on a per instrument basis but multi instrument basis. So would this approach work in Cakewalk? I am not sure that Cakewalk has the ability to split up outputs like Prologic. Wow, I thought I understood MIDI but it seems there are areas that I need to learn more. This whole "per output" thing still has me confused. Can someone please explain it in more detail? Thanks for any help. It still seems that using multiple instances of Kontakt or any instrument is a workaround for this limitation. Couldn't you just use the same instrument 1 time in 16 instances of Kontakt? Couldn't you route each MPE output of the controller to a different track? Edited January 12, 2023 by RexRed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 10 hours ago, RexRed said: I have to think about this part. (Per-Output Instrument tracks are unsuitable for MPE instruments.) Not sure exactly what that means. Which VSTs are Per-Output and which are not, and how can you tell? They all seem to have 16 channel dropdowns in Cakewalk tracks. Native Instruments? FM8? EastWest sounds? What about synths Falcon, Nexus, Omnisphere and VPS Avenger? Per-Output Instruments are a type of Instrument track in Cakewalk, not a type of VSTi,. In Cakewalk you have three types of Instrument tracks:Simple Instrument Tracks - a track strip that contains an Audio Track and a MIDI Track, but shows as one strip. The output of the MIDI track is set to the VSTi MIDI input, and the Audio track input is connected to the first stereo pair of the VSTi outputs. By default, the MIDI track is set to transmit on all channels (i.e. it plays back exactly what you recorded).Split Instrument Tracks - one or more separate MIDI tracks / Audio Tracks. The MIDI tracks outputs are set to the VSTi MIDI input, and the Audio Track inputs are connected to the output(s) of the VSTi audio output(s). The MIDI and Audio tracks appear as separate tracks in the Track View.Per-Output Instrument Tracks - These are a special type of Simple Instrument Track, where you have several combined Audio/MIDI tracks connected to a single VSTi. For each MIDI/Audio track pair, the MIDI output of the MIDI track part is set to a specific channel, and the Audio Input of the Audio track part is connected to a specific VSTi audio output. This allows you to have several "Instrument Tracks" playing different sounds (and each having their own audio fx bin), but using a single VSTi instance. For this to work correctly, you normally have to set the MIDI inputs and Audio outputs of each instrument within the VSTi itself. In essence, a Per-Output Instrument Track is exactly the same as a Simple Instrument Track with the exception that it has it's MIDI output channel set to a single channel. As MPE requires the use of all 16 MIDI channels, you can't use Per-Output Instrument Tracks, because they're set to transmit on a single channel only. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 10 hours ago, RexRed said: Has MIDI 2.0 been released yet? Yes 10 hours ago, RexRed said: Does Windows have MIDI 2.0 yet? Cakewalk ? No - it's in the works: https://www.kvraudio.com/focus/amei-to-fund-open-source-midi-2-0-driver-for-windows-56224 Cakewalk is waiting on Microsoft supporting it. 10 hours ago, RexRed said: What changes have been made to the MIDI spec? Too much to mention. But the main points are: - higher resolution velocity / controllers - devices can now "ask" which capabilities another device has You can read about it here: https://www.midi.org/specifications/midi-2-0-specifications 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now