V Vocal

[RevSpyder]

What happened to V Vocal? Is it gone? Is there something to replace it so that I can pitch correct vocals?

[scook]

V-Vocal was a product made by Roland that Cakewalk bundled with SONAR 5 through X2 Producer.

When Roland sold Cakewalk to Gibson, V-Vocal was not part of the sale.

Starting with X3, Cakewalk added ARA support and included a license for Melodyne Essential with some versions.

Cakewalk by BandLab supports ARA2 and includes a time-limited trial version of Melodyne Editor.

Like SONAR X3 Producer through Platinum, CbB will load V-Vocal if it is installed.

Installing V-Vocal requires at least running the advanced install option and selecting "Minimal Installation" of a version of SONAR that included the productl Like this from X2 Producer

 

[garybrun]

I have kept every version of Sonar since day 1 ?

[Byron Dickens]

Practice?

[RevSpyder]

Gary, I have my old Sonar X3 Producers, but how do I use that with Cakewalk? Do I record it in the old version, make my corrections and then open it in the new version to put everything together? Or is there another way that's less klugey?

[Starship Krupa]

If you install Cakewalk alongside Sonar, all of your Sonar FX, including V-Vocal, should appear and work just like they did in Sonar. As a matter of fact, the current Cakewalk Reference Guide has a chapter on V-Vocal to support people who upgrade from Sonar to CbB.

So, no kluge at all, it should work seamlessly. If it doesn't, post back here and the forumites will help you out.

[abacab]

1 hour ago, RevSpyder said:

Gary, I have my old Sonar X3 Producers, but how do I use that with Cakewalk? Do I record it in the old version, make my corrections and then open it in the new version to put everything together? Or is there another way that's less klugey?

X3 did not include V-Vocal. That ended with X2, so you would need a copy of that X2 version of Sonar.

Here is a spreadsheet showing the plugins included with Sonar from Sonar 3  Producer to Platinum: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qNsnKBASsnsALygDDQSQ4jFW6yhZIJZcIpfwH-6qgy0/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

The other bundled plugins from X3 will continue to work with Cakewalk CbB, so it's a definite plus to have that installed!

[RevSpyder]

Starship Krupa, thanks. That sounds great!

Gary, I think I'm wrong on my Sonar X version -- I'll have to look. I used V-Vocal on our last CD, so it's a version that includes it. We had to move twice during production, and that was about the time Cakewalk supplanted Sonar, so things have been a bit confusing.

Thank you both very much!

[Grem]

9 hours ago, abacab said:

Here is a spreadsheet showing the plugins included with Sonar from Sonar 3  Producer to Platinum:

Who made that excellent document!?

I would like to put it in my google doc, but there is no button to d/l.

[Starship Krupa]

13 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Practice?

Ha, haaa, ya know that joke just never gets funny!

[Byron Dickens]

How did people manage to make all those records before pitch correction?

I'm  not trying to be an ***** here. If you practice until you can get it right going into the microphone instead of relying on technology to fix it later,  you ultimately end up with a much better product.  And in less time.

Singing in tune is not something reserved for the special few.  Go to church one Sunday. Anyone can do it.

 

People sing out of tune b/c they either push too hard or they run out of breath. Or b/c they try to go outside their range. Like a baritone trying to sing the same notes as Geddy Lee.

[RevSpyder]

Hey, Byron -- not everybody falls into those categories. For whatever reason, they will always need correction. I've been recording a singer/songwriter with a beautiful voice for 15 CD's now, and she still needs correction (as do I!). The solutions you put forth all make sense but whether you can accept it or not, they simply don't work or apply to everyone.  Maybe 90% or even 99% of people, but not everyone. Let's be a little more gentle and understanding of people's differences, eh? But thanks for your thoughtful response, I can see you didn't mean it disrespectfully.

[abacab]

7 hours ago, Grem said:

Who made that excellent document!?

I would like to put it in my google doc, but there is no button to d/l.

That was me.  A couple of years ago I took an older version that @MUDGEL had been maintaining, and then updated and posted it. I'll see if I can get you a copy. There's probably some way to share it.

[scook]

Should be able to save the page locally from the browser. It saves as an html document.

[abacab]

3 minutes ago, scook said:

Should be able to save the page locally from the browser. It saves as an html document.

Sent the .xls  file via PM, it's only 19kb.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by abacab

[abacab]

19 hours ago, abacab said:

X3 did not include V-Vocal. That ended with X2, so you would need a copy of that X2 version of Sonar.

Here is a spreadsheet showing the plugins included with Sonar from Sonar 3  Producer to Platinum: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qNsnKBASsnsALygDDQSQ4jFW6yhZIJZcIpfwH-6qgy0/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

The other bundled plugins from X3 will continue to work with Cakewalk CbB, so it's a definite plus to have that installed!

OK, this linked document  has been updated with a few needed corrections. To the best of my knowledge it is as correct as it will ever be now!

Change log 7-22-2019:

update - Session Drummer 3 - new in 8.5
update - Breverb - new in X2
update - Strum Session 2 - new in Platinum
update - Melodyne (3rd party installer note)
add - Addictive Drums (3rd party installer note) - new in X3, updated to AD2 in Platinum

[abacab]

10 hours ago, Grem said:

I would like to put it in my google doc, but there is no button to d/l.

That's because I used the Google Docs "Publish to the web" feature, rather than sharing the doc.

Any updates that I make to the doc online get updated to that link within 5 mins. So it is a "live" doc. I can also pull a download version from it in several formats, xlsx, ods, pdf, html, csv, etc.

[Starship Krupa]

Hey Byron, I am actually of the same belief as you, despite not being the world's greatest singer myself.

If I hit a bum note I record the line again and either use the new take or comp the line in, but I am also a skilled recording and mix engineer. It's free for me to do that. I enjoy the challenge and it makes me a better singer. It's practical for me to do this, I record my songs for myself, under no deadline, I may put them on YouTube and BandLab someday, I recommend not holding your breath for that day to come.

I also play drums, I love playing drums, I'm proud of how far I've come in the 6 years I've been doing it, but I don't think I've ever recorded a take that didn't need at least one kick hit nudged. I could go back and record the track again, play until my arms fall off, but with drums, there's a point of diminishing returns, it turns into a chore, I lose the energy of the early takes, so why not just nudge that one thump? I'm still using my art and skill, just a different skill.

But really, this is a discussion among recording and mix engineers, not singers. V-Vocal is a tool for manipulating audio, which is what we do with our Cakewalk. Lots of us record ourselves, but lots of us, me included, record other people too.

I made my snarky comment because I grow weary of hearing the same grumpy grouses about the use of this tool. It's not funny, not helpful. People can't be shamed into wanting to be better musicians!

We get people who bring us bad recordings. We get singers who go out for one puff or beer too many and come back and blow a note or two. I did a song at my house for a friend who just friggin' hit the wrong fret on the bass track, dropped SuperClam right there and we didn't even notice it until after he left, perfect feel, timing, the guy was a touring pro for years and just fscked it up. I fired up Melodyne Elements and dragged the golden blob up one half step and it sounded great.

John Lennon had the engineers at Abbey Road invent automatic double tracking because he thought doubling his lead vocals was a chore, and soon, every pop song had the "chorus/flange" effect slapped on everything. Was it cheating? Heck yes it was. Fortunately it sounded fantastic.

Personally I detest the notion that every note that comes out of a singer's mouth needs to be in perfect tune anyway. I think that good singers, like good speakers, vary pitch slightly to convey emotion, and that gets lost when pitch gets over "corrected." When I play guitar, even with chords, I bend notes a little to make the guitar "speak." I do it without thinking.

So if I ever use Melodyne, I use it to fix a note that really sticks out, if the singer or whoever drops a serious clam.

Other people use it in different ways, ways I may not like, but as a recording and mix engineer I can only force the talent to do another take and sing in pitch to a certain degree. Then what? Kick them out? In this economic climate for studios? People always have and always will show up for recording dates unprepared. Under-rehearsed, undertalented, underfunded, under-whatever. So now we have a little software thingie that makes the singer sound in better tune, who is harmed?

I went out to see one of my favorite bands from the 90's on their reunion tour, was blown away by how good they were, everything spot on, vocals perfect. Then I watched the phone videos, and good heavens, I don't think she hit a good note the whole night! Just awful. I don't know if my enthusiasm created a pitch corrector in my head or what.?

[msmcleod]

I personally never really got on with V-Vocal at the time, but I do use Melodyne.

I went through the whole "purist" phase, regarding practicing and playing it all for real, but practice takes time. Not everyone has the time to practice to the point they can do a full take perfectly. Tools like V-Vocal and Melodyne means I can get my ideas down quicker (and certainly in my case, before I forget them!)

Here's a strange thing too... once I've done the recording and listened to it a few times, it's actually so much easier to play/sing it perfectly afterwards.