MIX BUS

[whoisp]

Just a quick one guys, i guess it's open to personal preference. 

I always mix down to a pre master ready or mastering  with approx 6db head room. Iv' heard a few people leave the master mix bus clean and add their compression etc at the mastering stage.  Personal i would say you want your mix pretty much sounding how it should be and mastering is the finishing touch with equalization, compression, limiting and stereo enhancement to get the overall sound. 

My personal preference is to use a Drawer 1973 neutral or soft (Air setting on or off) on the mix bus or maybe the 76 with couple db reduction.

I may then stick a initial clipper on the end for a bit of glue with positive or negative saturation or the soft tube but that's about it on my mix bus until mastering.  Whats people take on the mix bus?

[Lord Tim]

Does it sound good?

There's really no rules other than if you're sending stuff out to a third party mastering engineer, don't crush it so much they have nothing to work with.

It's actually really common (especially back in the old analogue days) to add some glue compressors to the mix bus, so have at it, I say!

[Byron Dickens]

1 hour ago, Lord Tim said:

There's really no rules other than if you're sending stuff out to a third party mastering engineer, don't crush it so much they have nothing to work with.

Otherwise, you'll end up with Death Magnetic. Good songs, but that listening experience....

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, that was a shocker!

Decent return to form (although it probably needed some editing to cut out a lot of redundant parts) but wow, the mastering was diabolical ? I suspect that was under direction from a certain drummer, however...

[whoisp]

 

Shxt is shxt, you polish and master shxt but its still shxt, gold can have shxt on it but its still gold they say.....

Every time you add some processes (plugins) in mastering, the reality is each stage will add level, your stage gaining it louder at the end of the day, db here and a db there and you will squeeze out  db by squashing the dynamics on the roof which can be over done if you don't get the mix right from experience.  You don't want to be messing about reducing input gain or reducing output gain.

Compare to the pre master, the master will always be lounder and our ears like lounder but it doesn't always mean the master is better.  There is a metric AB plugin that you can compare pre master to master to match levels and quality, ive never used it but apparently all the pros use it, it is something i must try

 

 

[whoisp]

Saying that, Andrew Scheps his quite heavy on the mix buss processing,  he users about 10 plugins, then you have some engineers use compression etcon every single track to preserve dynamics and not do to much on the master mix bus. I guess system power as something to say.  Iv'e always been reluctant to  put too much  on the mix-bus but  Scheps got me thinking lol

 

 

 

 

[Byron Dickens]

Scheps is the guy responsible for the mix on the afforementioned Death Magnetic.  Just sayin'....

[whoisp]

8 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

Scheps is the guy responsible for the mix on the afforementioned Death Magnetic.  Just sayin'....

Sold His Neve and mixes totally in the box so was probably on his crossover to DSP

 

[bats brew]

MIX BUS:

i mix into a waves SSL g series compressor,

set to just touching the signal.

usually, i have a true peak level meter right after the compressor.

 

i shoot for rms of -18, and peaks between -3 and -6.

 

on my MAINS, i have a full mastering chain (EQ, Pultec EQP1A, SSL compressor, waves L2, waves L3 Multimaximizer) that i bring into the late stages of the mix, to determine how the mastering process will affect my mix, but turn all of it off when bringing my mix into an actual mastering session.

[whoisp]

Personal preference with Compressors, i don't use the SSL and i limit myself with cost every year but keep meaning to try it, i was tempted but there is so much name dropping with gear these days and i needed some hardware this year.   

I do like the CW Stock 76, 2A and the 4K which i use on certain tracks and buses but i use the Drawer 1973 on the mix bus with no gain reduction, like you say just touching with my vintage tube depending on style of track, i even used the CW boost11 with no reduction, it as a nice vibe like the Initial clipper with positive and negative saturation, that's a great free clipper what you don't clip to get texture out of it.  I am old school, using the mvMeter2 even though i have levels, You lean and ozone 9 

I run a mastering bus what i flick between from the mix bus output to check, its the way ive always done it, helps me produce and mix, not just master.  Ive been using the RareSE which is free version of the Pultec EQP1A with the Sonitus Multiband haha which i find surprising good, i normally get better results with it, i think I'm just use to the stock or prefer the sound, i got so much i don't use.  i like the Drawer 1973 to push or pump, i sometimes dabble with other comp, i ahev a few depending on low, mid or high end, sometimes i even put the Nova on for top end and always ozone 9 at the end to find tune eq and Multimaximizer.

Still learning, depending on how complicated the mix is and sidechaining with patching etc  

[Danny]

On 1/5/2023 at 5:59 PM, Lord Tim said:

There's really no rules other than if you're sending stuff out to a third party mastering engineer, don't crush it so much they have nothing to work with.

It's actually really common (especially back in the old analogue days) to add some glue compressors to the mix bus, so have at it, I say!

There lies the problem. People mixing have no clue what "some glue" is. They ruin the track so that when the next guy gets it, their hands are tied. I can't even begin to tell you how many projects I've sent back for that reason. People think because they can't hear the compressor that it's not working. Sometimes these plugins ruin everything including the people using them.

Hey Tim, by the way, got a chance to hear your tune you shared for the Cakewalk demo. Freaking fantastic work, man! Loved everything about the song! Killer playing, mix etc!

Danny

[Lord Tim]

Cheers, Danny - I appreciate that!

Ironically, the processing that I did on that is pretty much textbook "What NOT To Do" when sending stuff out to a mastering engineer, but I really intended it as just some final polish to make it more "radio ready" so to speak, with just Cakewalk bundled effects. It gets the job done but when I do any proper mastering work, I certainly approach things a little differently. For a mix, less is definitely more when you're at this part of the process!

[Danny]

@Lord Tim Totally agree there. I do the same though I don't send anything out anymore. I've done enough of it to where I trust myself and feel I can compete with notable ME's after doing this stuff for over 35 years lol.

Yeah your tune was great everywhere I listened. Singing was incredible as well. I just completely dug it and the way it was set up etc. It's a good benchmark tune showcasing quite a bit of Cakewalk's horsepower and usage. Again, stellar job!!!

Since we're on the glue topic, speaking for myself only, I personally can't use a plugin on my master bus other than something from UAD. The Emperical Labs Fatso Jr is my personal weapon of choice because the thing really sounds like it makes a difference for the better and glues things together beautifully.

I used to use a Drawmer Tube comp but this Fatso thing to me does a better job. Mixing through it is where it truly comes to life. Quite a few people I read about don't know about mixing through the 2 bus comp. Most on this site know, but whew, I've read stuff and have had clients send me stuff with "thrown on comps" that wouldn't have made a difference if they would have mixed into it anyway. People fail to realize most plugin comps truly have 0 coloration.

Some literally dirt up a track which to me, isn't really coloration. It's just digital dirt which degrades the track further.

Once I convince clients to trust me and they hear how much better things sound, they learn how much they don't know about pre master processing. Less is definitely more when turning something over to an ME that is good at their craft. ?

Edited January 12, 2023 by Danny

[Alan Tubbs]

WA tone beast, WA pultec and a Burgin McDaniel’s Komit compressor/diode limiter  (the original hand made versions before Radial bought out the design).  When you drive the Komits clean compressor you can get beautiful saturation with the limiter.

[Bapu]

I've recently added hardware to my studio.

My plan is to: 

2 x 500 series HRK ST552 tape emus into WA Bus comp for vocals
Fatso into Heritage Audio for drums
2 x 500 series HRK ST552 tape emus into TK Audio Bus comp for bass
2 x 500 series HRK ST552 tape emus int Serpent Audio on the 2 Bus

Of course, I have some 'learning' to do with his hybrid setup.

As well on the input side I've changed by interface to 3  Apollo x8p's and 1 Apollo Twin X.

 

[whoisp]

15 minutes ago, Bapu said:

I've recently added hardware to my studio.

My plan is to: 

2 x 500 series HRK ST552 tape emus into WA Bus comp for vocals
Fatso into Heritage Audio for drums
2 x 500 series HRK ST552 tape emus into TK Audio Bus comp for bass
2 x 500 series HRK ST552 tape emus int Serpent Audio on the 2 Bus

Of course, I have some 'learning' to do with his hybrid setup.

As well on the input side I've changed by interface to 3  Apollo x8p's and 1 Apollo Twin X.

 

Can't you achieve that with todays modern Plugins?  Software DPS emus can get any sound you want now with ease. The problem with all the old analogue equipment is it is never consistent from one day to the next. Everything is done in the box these days unless you are really using them for the recording  side. I do have the Softube tape emulators and unless you specially want that sound are you maybe adding something you don't need? I thnik the audio nterface is the bast bit of kit these days, although i do myself go through a old Boss FX  unit with emulators lol but it does have good vocal, guitar and bass comp with some good preamps and cabs, well the saturation etc is also good

[Bapu]

5 hours ago, whoisp said:

Can't you achieve that with todays modern Plugins?  

Maybe. But case in point.

Watched a video with that Whitesea guy and Glen Fricker do a test of a free Distressor, Slate Distressor and a real Distressor.

The free was hands down dismissed as far inferior to the Slate and the Slate was considered 'pretty good' but it was decided that the real thing was the real thing by far.

That in part drove my decision to give a hybrid system a try. Worst case scenario if I'm not satisfied; I can resell the gear as it all respected hardware on the intertubes.

[Lord Tim]

If nothing else, a Distressor is great on the way in so you don't clip the converters, even if you decide it's not in your workflow to strap it over the master.

[Bapu]

3 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

If nothing else, a Distressor is great on the way in so you don't clip the converters, even if you decide it's not in your workflow to strap it over the master.

Eventually goal is to have a pair of distressors too (at minimum for kick and snare on the way in).

[Alan Tubbs]

HardwarenD Shaping while recording makes it much easier to shape in the box or using external hardware.  -3dB while recording means you can use another - 3 dB compression, making a gentler, more natural sound from compression  than slamming it in the box or mastering.  And the imperfections are part of the charm.  The best engineering of vox I’ve ever done was gain riding an la2a itself during the take.  Glorious saturation while controlling the volume.  Cant do that with software, I think, tho there may be work arounds.

the most interesting bit of kit I’ve bought lately is the RND Orbit summing mixer.  It is transformer coupled on the outputs.  Running a hot signal thru the output shows exactly how much a transformer (by Rupert Neve) can sweeten the sound.  Once you hear it you can’t not hear it.  To my ears software solutions are great for precision control of vol for comps or surgical cuts for eq.  But if I want mojo on a channel, it is hardware.  
 

and as for pro mixers who are in the box, one often forgets their tracks have been recorded in pro tuned rooms with expensive hardware .  They already have all the analog magic built in.