Problem with Plug-Ins (Distortion)

[Alex3]

Hello.

I've been using Cakewalk for recording vocals consitently for about 4 months now. I've downloaded a lot of plug-ins by TDR and also Melda Production and I've used the same plug-ins on almost every recording with almost the same settings. My audio interface is Focusrite iTrack Solo and my mic is Audio Technica AT2020 Condenser Microphone.

Yesterday, when I finished recording another song I went to do my mixing but I experienced a quite interesting problem. When I was adding effects in the same order as of previous recordings on my FX chain I was hearing a little distortion in the recording and it also became a little quieter. I ran back to my old recordings to hear my old vocals with the same plug-ins and settings and there wasn't any sign of distortion from them. I tried upping my buffer size to 1024 samples when mixing but that didn't help. I also exported the problematic recording to hear if there is any distortion in the finished process and there it was again. I'm a bit clumsy with my hands and I could've made a mess in the config of Cakewalk but I even reinstalled the program and also restart the config.

Maybe it's just my mixing skills who are messing up the recording but I have used the same settings for the past 4 months and I don't know what to do. I've searched in the web for "plug-in distortion issue" and even "cakewalk plug-in distortion issue" and I came upon some advice but unfortunately it didn't workout for me.

If someone can help I would be deeply grateful and one thing before giving me a solution is to keep the terminology simple because I'm a bit of a noob.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Alex3

[mark skinner]

 Hello Alex , welcome to the forum. If your distortion is coming from your vocal track , solo it with No plugins and listen for distortion. Check your level on the track and the master. Early in the mix , it shouldn't be louder than -6 db. I would also look at the EQ in case something is booming or spiking in a certain frequency. Add one plugin at a time and recheck your volumes and listen hard for distortion. Continue this and you might find the culprit. Unless one of the plugins has become problematic , it may just be too much gain added by the FX and will need to be addressed. (Gain Staging).  This should be a starting point.   Good luck , let us know what you find ..           mark

Edited December 9, 2022 by mark skinner

[Lord Tim]

It's a bit hard to say what the problem is because "distortion" could mean a bunch of different things. 

If it's like "guitar amplifier" distortion, Mark is on the money - it's likely a gain staging issue, and that's great advice. Definitely explore those options first because that's going to be your most likely and quickest path to fixing the problem.

But if you mean there's some other crackling or weird noise in the track as compared to your previous recordings, it could be any number of things. If it turns out to not be a gain thing, are you able to post up a sample of your old "good" vocal take and the new "bad" one so we can hear exactly what you mean?

[rfssongs]

Turn down the gain in the track controls ? It helps me.

[Alex3]

Thank you all for the replies!

When I record vocals I make sure that my raw recordings don't exceed past -12db, and after editing I mix the whole track and put limiter which also doesn't exceed -6db. Only in the mastering phase I search for 0db. So as for gain staging I think I'm alright. As mark skinner said I did solo the track and slowly started to remove the plug-ins and I noticed that the distortion goes away and also the raw recording was around -15db but after adding the effects the recording went to -20,7db!!

As Lord Tim suggested in this and in other replies I will upload wav files of my takes and also screenshots of the FX Chains. (Please lower your volume down before hearing them and also don't pay attention to what I say because I'm singing/rapping in Bulgarian. As for the "problem.wav" you can hear in the last word a lot of distortion on the "S" sound. You will see in the screenshot what plug-ins I use). Also pay attention to the sample rate - is this a probable reason for the issue.

problem.wav

Edited December 9, 2022 by Alex3

[Alex3]

yesterday project (first part.ok ; second part. pain).mp3 works fine.mp3

Edited December 9, 2022 by Alex3
I forgot to put mp3

[Lord Tim]

Without hearing anything yet (I'll be in front of my machine a bit later), those effects chains are pretty crazy! You've got quite a lot of things doubled up that could really be simplified. Every EQ especially will introduce phase shifts that can really add up to be pretty messy after a while.

My gut is telling me you have a large boost going into one plugin that's not playing nice with that amount of gain, and then you have a cut going into the next one that's "fixing" the previous gain boost.

I'll check this stuff out when I'm in front of a computer next, but I'm sure someone else will be able to give some good advice after hearing them before then.

[Byron Dickens]

Hell, it could be nothing more than your computer struggling under the weight of so many unnecessary effects piled on top of each other.

[Alex3]

Just to clarify first I clean out my mix with the deeser and the equalizer. In the EQ I do a low cut, a cut in 400hz and also a 4k cut. The second EQ is for as I like to say “the glass frequencies” - I make the Q of every dot on the EQ to be 20 and I go through the whole spectrum while boosting the vocals and when I hear a crackling like glass sound I go and give it -5db and like that I use all the 6 dots in the MEqualizer. After that I put a compression of 1-2 db and I use analog compressor searching for 5db. After that I de-es any signal and I put it through EQ to make a treble boost and 1k boost while also giving again a little cut at 4k to remove any unwanted frequencies. As I said I use this same chain every time and my computer has worked pretty well with the settings before. And even in the “good” mix I have more effects going on than in the “problem” mixes.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Alex3

[Starship Krupa]

That is a LOT of processors piled up. We each have our own techniques and styles, and there's no "wrong" way unless it doesn't sound good, but in your case, it's not sounding good (to you).

The first thing I do if I'm getting unwanted noise or distortion in a plug-in chain is go through the plug-in rack one-by-one bypassing and then turning them back on until I find the one that's causing the problem. Unlike others in this thread, I'm less sure that you're getting too much level into a processor because your overall level is pretty low. -12dB is low. So unless one of the FX is boosting it too much for the next one in line to take, that's not a problem. I would record hotter, though.

I examined "problem.wav" and had a hard time hearing the "distortion. Examining your FX chain....I will say that one should only ever use one instance of a de-esser on a track. That's best practice. Over-aggressive de-essing can create distortion and a lisping sound.

I can't help but want to comment on your (long) FX chains. What you're doing is....unusual.

4 compressors is excessive. One fast one (Molotok or maybe MCompressor) to take the peaks off and a smoother one (LALA) for leveling should do it. MEQualizer is a great plug-in, but 3 instances of it on the same track? If you're feeling the need to de-ess, then de-ess again after going through 2 EQ's and 2 compressors, you've probably boosting the highs too much on one of the EQ's and are compensating for it with the second stage of de-essing. There's no reason to boost highs if you're just going to shave them off again with a de-esser.

You are doing a lot of carving that might not be necessary. One or two 3-6dB cuts at the "honk" frequencies and a highpass can all be done with one instance of MEQualizer. Maybe also a lowpass rolloff at the very top.

As a general guide, the fewer FX I can use to get results, the better. Each one comes at a price in fidelity, in the form of phase distortion, aliasing, etc. As for your de-breath plug-in, perhaps using a pop filter when recording vocals, then editing your vocal into phrases and trimming the clips to eliminate the breath intakes could get you better results without the need for yet another plug-in.

Remember, when we're mixing, we're mixing, that is, the idea is to get multiple sounds to sound good together rather than sculpting each track into sonic perfection and then putting them all together. In a good mix, some if not most or all of the tracks are going to sound like hell when solo'd. This applies greatly to vocals and acoustic guitar, which carry a lot of unnecessary sonic information at the lower end.

We have to solo for some tasks like finding and cutting the aforementioned "honk" frequencies and chasing down breath intakes, but most of the time, it's best to work with all the tracks together.

[mark skinner]

 Alex , after listening to "yesterday project" ,  my first and Main suggestion would be to "back off" from the microphone. I think you are causing most of the problems you're trying to fix later with all of the plugins. The proximity effect of the mic seems to be taking a toll on the low end , and your breathing is nearly as loud as some of the vocal phrases. "S" and wind problems get a Lot worse when you are right on the mic . If I had to "fix" that track , I would cut it up and edit out all the noises instead of using FX , and it would Never be as good as getting a clean mix to start with. As far as EQ , I would suggest turning the track input echo on , open up the pro channel EQ and expand it out using the   >>  arrows and pressing the pin icon to lock it on the page. Sing some and "look" at the EQ module to see what's going on before ever actually recording. It's pretty easy to see the giant jump in frequency's on the graph when you are too close.    Respectfully ..  mark 

[Lord Tim]

Yep, start with the source - there's some great replies here.

Back off from the mic a bit for a start so you don't get so much of a proximity effect.

Then I would high-pass the vocal first with an EQ - it's likely nothing else will need doing to it, although you might want to sweeten the high end or upper midrange to give it more presence in the mix. Be careful with the high end boost - doing that will make all of the breaths and sibilance really loud, which will need fixing with a de-esser, which shouldn't be necessary first in the chain.

Then I would add your compression after that.

Then I would add the de-esser.

Then I would add a final EQ as something to make it fit into the mix properly.

If you have your voice going into your mic sounding good in the first place, this will be all you need. I can see the use for De-Breath, but I would put that right after the first EQ.

If this is distorting, then you have a problem with how loud you have your effects running. Check to see you haven't boosted up any EQ past 0dB. Check on your compressor that your make-up gain isn't too loud feeding into the next effect, etc.  It's very likely your compressor that's peaking out and making things sound crunchy.

There's definitely uses for all of the effects you have on the channel but "less is more" when it comes to processing initially when you're getting a good vocal sound. Sort that out first and put it into the mix, and then if it's missing something, then sure - add the necessary effects, but be logical about what you add. Just because you *can* add 5 different EQs doesn't mean you should. Like I mentioned earlier, unless you're using Linear Phase EQ (which comes with its own problems) then every EQ you add will be introducing phase shifting which will be cancelling out frequencies and potentially adding distortion. The least amount of that kind of stuff, the better.

[Alex3]

Thank you guys so much for the help you gave me! I understand that I use a lot of processing on vocals which are recorded in a good environment and with a great microphone. Stay awesome and keep helping newbies like me! I really appreciate your time and effort!

[Alex3]

Little Update: I checked 64 bit precission Engine box and it got rid of the distortion I was hearing. Maybe that was also part of the problem

Edited December 12, 2022 by Alex3

[Max Arwood]

Over Compression also brings out noise that is in the track. Unless it was recorded in a quality treated room, with quality equipment the noise can be very noticeable. It will also accentuate lip smacks and "Ss".

 

[Noel Borthwick]

On 12/12/2022 at 8:19 AM, Alex3 said:

Little Update: I checked 64 bit precission Engine box and it got rid of the distortion I was hearing. Maybe that was also part of the problem

Checked or unchecked? If checking the double precision box did that then it typically means that there is some floating point overflow going on in the signal chain. By switching to double precision there is more headroom so it sidesteppped the issue.