7950x in hand

[Jim Roseberry]

2 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

using the thunderbolt or USB 2.0 on the Antelope?

The Orion Studio Synergy Core was connected via Thunderbolt.

FWIW, No audio interface can achieve round-trip latency that low via USB-2/3.

USB-2/3 can achieve ~4ms (under ideal circumstances)

[Glenn Stanton]

i figured that was the case ? i have an inexpensive  I/O - UMC1820 - using USB3 i can get to 4-6ms... depending on how many channels i'm using - drums - all 8 ch (mics) - 6ms, single guitar - 2ch (DI + amp) - 4ms. however, owing to my pc power (or lack thereof), no effects on during record...

[Jim Roseberry]

The UMC Interfaces are excellent low-latency performers.

During lock-down, lots of folks using them for virtual jams/rehearsals...

[Jim Roseberry]

Doing some test Captures with IKMM's Tonex... using 7950x based machine with RTX-3070 video card:

Using Default training, Capture process takes ~3 minutes.

Using Advanced training, Capture process takes ~20 minutes.

[Teegarden]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:18 PM, Jim Roseberry said:

The 7950x will run at 95 degrees C.

Note that with proper cooling, it will not thermal-throttle under load.

I'd consider quality 360mm water-cooler a minimum.

It is a bit alarming compared to previous designs/thermals.

5950x also runs "hot"... but with proper cooling won't thermal-throttle.

Your test is nicely in line with this one from Techpowerup confirming that cooling is not a big issue for the 7950x : Ryzen 9 7950x cooling requirements thermal throttling

However, it would be nice if the following could become a "consumer friendly" option: delidded ryzen 9 7900x delivers huge drop in temperatures

That might significantly reduce power consumption, run quieter and even enable it to be faster without throttling.

Any thoughts if this (delidded with accompanying tailored cooler) will become available for next batches of processors? 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Teegarden

[Jim Roseberry]

8 hours ago, Teegarden said:

However, it would be nice if the following could become a "consumer friendly" option: delidded ryzen 9 7900x delivers huge drop in temperatures

That might significantly reduce power consumption, run quieter and even enable it to be faster without throttling.

Any thoughts if this (delidded with accompanying tailored cooler) will become available for next batches of processors? 

FWIW, I think most users (even tech-savvy) are going to avoid delidding a $700 CPU (voiding the warranty).

AMD certainly got their performance together with the 7xxx series... but it would be nice to see improvement with thermals.

Based on AMD's attitude about 7xxx series temps, I doubt their going to make significant changes.

I'm thinking bigger cases and larger coolers are going to be the norm (AMD and Intel) for the next few years.

[Bill C]

Here is an interesting test of cooling Zen 4:

 

 

[Jim Roseberry]

Waste of time...

If you buy a 7950x... and cool it with a $35 air-cooler, you're going to get absolute crap performance.

Under substantial load, there's no way even a D15 (dual fans) is going to prevent thermal-throttling.

If you're going to let it thermal-throttle, there's no point in having a $700 "workstation" CPU.

 

Not only do you need to prevent thermal-throttling, but you also need to keep the machine quiet.

If the 7950x runs at 95 degrees C, guess what happens to your fan RPMs?!

[lmu2002]

I've come across several articles/videos where they've come to the conclusion that high (90C') temperatures doesn't have a major impact on performance on these top tier AMD and Intel cpus. E.g. the difference between a decent $30 cooler and a big liquid cooler is quite minimal in terms of performance, especially when the cooler prices are added to the picture . Just like the video above suggests.

Is it wise to buy a top tier cpu and then compromise the performance even a little bit is another question. And very much so will be the cooling of the mid range cpus where the bang for the buck plays a much bigger role.

[Jim Roseberry]

I've actually got both 7950x and 13900k machines in the studio.

I've tested both extensively. 

The 7950x is less prone to thermal-throttling than the 13900k.

The 7950x can run (without damage) at 95 degrees C for extended periods.

Just because it can run without damage doesn't mean it's a good overall scenario.

 

There is a *massive* difference (under heavy loads) when using a NH-D15 (140mm air-cooler with dual fans) and a top-tier 420mm AIO.

Running Cinebench R23, I've watched the 13900k thermal-throttle with a quality 360mm AIO.

To talk about using something like a Hyper 212 (120mm air-cooler) is pure comedy.

Yes, some YouTuber can piece it together... and it runs "works" (under light load).

Is it going to perform the same as robust cooling?  Absolutely... no... way

Render some video with said $30 cooler... and watch the wheels fall off (thermal-throttle).

As I mentioned before, you don't want the CPU hitting 95 degrees C running DAW apps... as fan RPMs (noise) will be extremely loud.

 

I've seen YouTube videos where someone assembled a Threadripper based machine using a NH-D14S.

Threadripper has 280w TDP.

"Runs nice and quiet!"  Yeah, now render some video.  

I've tested the 10980xe (165w TDP) with a D15 (dual fans).

Fine if you're just tinkering (light loads).

Render some video... and watch clock-speed plummet.

 

If you're wanting to save money:

Instead of buying a $700 CPU (and pairing it with an inadequate $30 cooler), buy something like a 12700k and pair it with a quality air-cooler.

You'll save ~$250... and the machine will run cool/quiet (no thermal-throttling under load).

 

As someone who's built DAWs professionally for nearly 30 years:

If Noctua air-coolers were adequate for the 7950x and 13900k, I'd be using them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Jim Roseberry

[jackson white]

2 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Instead of buying a $700 CPU (and pairing it with an inadequate $30 cooler), buy something like a 12700k and pair it with a quality air-cooler.

You'll save ~$250... and the machine will run cool/quiet (no thermal-throttling under load).

truth, and the same conclusion here based on currently available options. 

@Jim Roseberry  wondering if you ever use or see a need for a DAW specific benchmark vs. one of the "standards" which are typically game/video-centric to assess thermal load vs core performance. (fwiw, my benchmark is courtesy of Acustica Audio ?.)

[Jim Roseberry]

1 hour ago, jackson white said:

truth, and the same conclusion here based on currently available options. 

@Jim Roseberry  wondering if you ever use or see a need for a DAW specific benchmark vs. one of the "standards" which are typically game/video-centric to assess thermal load vs core performance. (fwiw, my benchmark is courtesy of Acustica Audio ?.)

FWIW, I run my own benchmarks... in addition to Cinebench R23.

I'm particularly interested in ultra low latency audio performance... so I push the machine to find absolute limits.

 

Based on previous CPU performance, Intel/AMD reported performance gain, etc... you can pretty well guess where a new CPU will fall.

That said, I always like to see/experience it first-hand.

ie:  I had heard the 13900k was breaking 40,000 in Cinebench R23 multi-core.

It's nice to actually have the machine (in front of you) breaking 40k... without thermal-throttling... and without CPU temps getting in the 90s C.

 

[Bill C]

>If Noctua air-coolers were adequate for the 7950x and 13900k, I'd be using them.

Point taken!

Carl

 

[jackson white]

19 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

I'm particularly interested in ultra low latency audio performance

you sound like a guitar player. ?  I have assumed audio interface driver settings/performance were the first order limiting factor, but no longer the case? given recent options for lower buffer settings (Presonus, Tascam, etc).

[Jim Roseberry]

26 minutes ago, jackson white said:

you sound like a guitar player. ?  I have assumed audio interface driver settings/performance were the first order limiting factor, but no longer the case? given recent options for lower buffer settings (Presonus, Tascam, etc).

Your audio interface will determine the lowest latency you can achieve.

The machine obviously has to be able to sustain the load (glitch-free).

 

The X-factor with audio interfaces is the (often hidden) "safety" or sometimes called "streaming" buffer.

A small number of audio interfaces allow you to change this buffer size.

The best audio interfaces (best drivers) use a small safety/streaming buffer.  Mediocre units use a larger buffer... and have significantly higher round-trip latency.

If your audio interface uses a large safety/streaming buffer, it'll never yield low round-trip latency.

This is separate from the ASIO buffer size.

[Jeffrey O'Hara]

Greetings Jim, 

I was wondering of using the PBO feature to undervolt for the Ryzen 7950X would be especially beneficial for DAW use. Or would there be significant stability issues?

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Jeffrey O'Hara

[Jim Roseberry]

2 hours ago, Jeffrey O'Hara said:

Greetings Jim, 

I was wondering of using the PBO feature to undervolt for the Ryzen 7950X would be especially beneficial for DAW use. Or would there be significant stability issues?

Hi Jeffrey,

 

IMO, The reason to have a CPU like the 7950x or 13900k is ultimate performance.

While undervolting is fine (just need to test for absolute stability), I wouldn't go in expecting an undervolt to be a substitute for proper/robust cooling.

You're still going to need a large AIO and a large case to accommodate.

A successful undervolt may buy you a few degrees.  Don't expect it to be a night vs day difference.

If you're talking a significant undervolt, you're probably going to need to (significantly) reduce clock-speed.  That's not what you want in a DAW.

The 7950x doesn't need "fixed".  It simply needs proper cooling.

The 7950x sitting next to me is blazing fast... and very quiet.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Jim Roseberry

[Jeffrey O'Hara]

49 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Hi Jeffrey,

 

IMO, The reason to have a CPU like the 7950x or 13900k is ultimate performance.

While undervolting is fine (just need to test for absolute stability), I wouldn't go in expecting an undervolt to be a substitute for proper/robust cooling.

You're still going to need a large AIO and a large case to accommodate.

A successful undervolt may buy you a few degrees.  Don't expect it to be a night vs day difference.

If you're talking a significant undervolt, you're probably going to need to (significantly) reduce clock-speed.  That's not what you want in a DAW.

The 7950x doesn't need "fixed".  It simply needs proper cooling.

The 7950x sitting next to me is blazing fast... and very quiet.

Thanks for the response Jim. With many more reviewers concluding that undervolting or setting a power limit would be a worthwhile, I thought I would run it by you to see if the approach would make sense for our needs. It wouldn't replace the recommendation for the 350mm+ AIO, but I was hoping conjunction with the adjustments, it would lower the temperature and noise while losing... 10% tops of performance. At least from what I read.  I do understand your point regarding the 7950X and i9-13900K. It wouldn't make sense to buy those chips and then say impose a power limit of 65W. 

One last question re: RAM support. I know when all 4 DIMMS are populated, the max supported RAM speed I believe is 3600MHz. Have you had any luck with higher speeds when they are all in use? 

[Jim Roseberry]

11 hours ago, Jeffrey O'Hara said:

One last question re: RAM support. I know when all 4 DIMMS are populated, the max supported RAM speed I believe is 3600MHz. Have you had any luck with higher speeds when they are all in use? 

I'm definitely running RAM above 3600MHz (all four slots populated).

It's more complex than just setting XMP.  

Initial support for DDR5 (both X670e and Z790 motherboards) has been less than ideal.

Initial Z690 support for 13th Gen CPUs has also been less than ideal (~25% lower performance).

[Teegarden]

@Jim Roseberry Is it still worth while slightly overclocking RAM with the latest Ryzen series? I read an article a few years back that you could gain up to 25% performance without risking instability on Ryzen systems and even our Microsoft forum member Pete Brown advices to think about overclocking memory: Tip: Memory performance can make a real difference, especially if you work with large sample libraries. Slightly overclocking your memory is an often overlooked source of performance.

And one question that kept sticking to me: 

• "effective latency" vs "total round trip latency cakewalk" - which matters when checking latency and why
  (the explanations I found so far are not clear to me)

Edited November 16, 2022 by Teegarden
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