Cakewalk - the only DAW with playback delay issue?

[azslow3]

18 hours ago, Antre said:

Big thanks for nice and supportive community and for all of yours suggestions.

One second, half a second, milisecond - only in CbB. Thats the point.

I opened a blank project and started to add tracks. As number of tracks gets bigger (no plugins) delay gets bigger. 50 tracks - more then one second delay. Plus delay on stop. When you work you hit play/stop/play. Thats two seconds of delay on stop/play. When I was younger maybe had nerves for that.

Lets forget about all the settings and think about this: Same number of tracks, same audio settings in other DAWs here - no problemo. As I already sad I never experienced this kind of behaviour outside the CbB and Sonar.

I cannot be suspicios on OS, PC or sound card or any problem outside CbB becose I never had this issue in other programs. 

So for me the title questions remains...

Just to note... CbB by itself also does not have such issue, at least for most users. So it is something "outside" on all your systems. And it hit Cakewalk (can be "only", can be in other DAWs that is way less noticeable).

If delay increase just with the number of audio tracks without FXes, almost everything can be excluded as the reason.
If delay increase just from empty tracks, I can imagine just one reason, graphics (if tracks have clips, delay can be disk operations related). Can it be you was always using the same type of graphic card (f.e. only AMD/NVidia/Intel)?
Note that different DAWs use different rendering (unlike most other types of programs), so each DAW is sensitive to performance of specific  graphic features.

[bvideo]

Supposing that it is taking time loading up audio files to start playback (more files, slower startup), maybe it's worth playing with the file I/O settings, such as buffer size and caching. If other daws are very different in this scenario, maybe they are optimizing by preloading the audio whenever the playback cursor lands, not waiting for a "start playback". Hard to imagine any other differences. Related issues may be the speed of your drive and the fragmentation of your recorded audio.

[HIBI]

On 9/25/2022 at 12:55 AM, Antre said:

I opened a blank project and started to add tracks. As number of tracks gets bigger (no plugins) delay gets bigger. 50 tracks - more then one second delay.

If your project drive has slow transfer speeds, Cakewalk will start delayed playback accordingly.
Is the projects saved on HDD? or SSD?

[Starship Krupa]

Would really like to have a .BUN file of an offending project. That way those of us who would like to help can try it on our systems and see if we get similar results.

If we don't, well, that narrows it down.

For those saying that it's not all that long a delay, I'm thinking maybe you don't do a lot of comping? When in that process, I'm usually constantly starting and stopping the transport to make sure the edits line up, are inaudible, etc. Those "little" delays became really annoying, got me out of the creative flow.

This is not "much ado about nothing." At the time it was happening, I had two other DAW guys looking over my shoulder, one a Pro Tools guy and the other Ableton Live. They both agreed it would drive them nuts to the point of making it unusable.

I do encourage the OP to get with Windows 10 unless they know for sure that something critical to them is incompatible. Letting a system age like that is just inviting trouble.

[Will.]

On 9/24/2022 at 5:55 PM, Antre said:

I opened a blank project and started to add tracks. As number of tracks gets bigger (no plugins) delay gets bigger.

Well, technically - if you're using a VSTi (Virtual Studio Technology Instrument,) that's a plugin. 

This could very well be the cause in the latency you're experience in Cakewalk as @Cactus Music mentioned earlier in this thread. Not every Vst(i) works perfect in every DAW. The "very best Grand Piano" might run smooth in Logic, but not in PT. The vienna symphonic orchestra plugin, might run smooth in CbB, but not in reaper. Its the same as how quick it is to create a sidechain bus/aux track in Cakewalk, but requires more clicks in another.

Every DAW has its own language and mood swings with certain things. Your job as the user - is to identify the issue and report it. What works flawless on my system, might not work favorable on system. This greatly depends on the different specs of of system and we maintain it. You cant use your DAW system to stream movies, or for graphic designing and to store all kind of things on it. That's asking for problems. 

Upgrade some of your system specs, invest in a cheap laptop and use this as your home machine and keep the desktop solely for making music on. It is also recommended to have a seperate machine for your second DAW. Often this is also the case in point. Each DAW requires different settings for your sound driver. So everytime you open another DAW on the same system (including video editors etc.) they always change the default settings in your OS. This among many reason i can mention now create playback latency. 

So instead of crying about this, educate yourself on system tweaks and if you're still unhappy about it - nothing stops you from using the other DAW you do not have license for. 

[Will.]

On 9/24/2022 at 5:55 PM, Antre said:

I opened a blank project and started to add tracks. As number of tracks gets bigger (no plugins) delay gets bigger.

Well, technically - if you're using a VSTi (Virtual Studio Technology Instrument,) that's a plugin. 

This could very well be the cause in the latency you experience in Cakewalk as @Cactus Music mentioned earlier in this thread. Not every Vst(i) works perfect in every DAW. The "very best Grand Piano" might run smooth in Logic, but not in PT. The Vienna Symphonic Orchestra plugin, might run smooth in CbB, but not in reaper. The same applies to how quick it is to create a sidechain bus/aux track in Cakewalk, but requires more clicks in different DAW. 

Every DAW has its own language and mood swings with certain things. Your job as the user - is to identify the issue and report it. What works flawless on my system, might not work favorable on your system. This greatly depends on the different specs of your system and how we maintain it. You cant use your DAW system to stream movies, or for graphic designing and to store all kind of things on it and still expect it to run perfectly. That's asking for problems. 

Upgrade some of your system specs, invest in a cheap laptop and use this as your home machine and keep the desktop solely for making music on. It is also recommended to have a seperate machine for your second DAW. Often this is also the case in point. Each DAW requires different settings for your sound driver. So everytime you open another DAW on the same system (including video editors etc.) they always change the default settings in your OS. This among many reason i can mention now create playback latency. 

So instead of continuously complaining about this, educate yourself on system tweaks and if you're still unhappy about it - nothing stops you from using the other DAWs you own | or | not. It all depends on you. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Will.

[Antre]

13 minutes ago, Will. said:

Well, technically - if you're using a VSTi (Virtual Studio Technology Instrument,) that's a plugin. 

This could very well be the cause in the latency you experience in Cakewalk as @Cactus Music mentioned earlier in this thread. Not every Vst(i) works perfect in every DAW. The "very best Grand Piano" might run smooth in Logic, but not in PT. The Vienna Symphonic Orchestra plugin, might run smooth in CbB, but not in reaper. The same applies to how quick it is to create a sidechain bus/aux track in Cakewalk, but requires more clicks in different DAW. 

Every DAW has its own language and mood swings with certain things. Your job as the user - is to identify the issue and report it. What works flawless on my system, might not work favorable on your system. This greatly depends on the different specs of your system and how we maintain it. You cant use your DAW system to stream movies, or for graphic designing and to store all kind of things on it and still expect it to run perfectly. That's asking for problems. 

Upgrade some of your system specs, invest in a cheap laptop and use this as your home machine and keep the desktop solely for making music on. It is also recommended to have a seperate machine for your second DAW. Often this is also the case in point. Each DAW requires different settings for your sound driver. So everytime you open another DAW on the same system (including video editors etc.) they always change the default settings in your OS. This among many reason i can mention now create playback latency. 

So instead of continuously complaining about this, educate yourself on system tweaks and if you're still unhappy about it - nothing stops you from using the other DAWs you own | or | not. It all depends on you. 

Read the post you quoted again - did I mention VSTi?

[GTsongwriter]

I'm curious, are you running any VST2 and VST3 plugins mixed?   If I run VST2 and VST3 plugins mixed together I end up getting delays and crashes.  I started only using VST3 .... I'll only use VST2 plugins in my projects IF I Freeze them right after as long as they are not the original cakewalk plugins.   The only plugins I can't freeze without crashing cakewalk is Dimension Pro, Beatscape, and Rapture Pro which are old VST2 software from Sonar Producer 8.5.3.  SSOOOOO... Try NOT to mix VST2 and VST3 ... then see if that fixes your delay issues.  Try not to use ANY old Sonar bundled plugins.

Dimension Pro, Beatscape, and Rapture Pro has no issues running in Sonar Producer 8.5.3 and will freeze just fine, but if they run in Cakewalk 2022.06 build 34, they will crash Cakewalk on freeze.  So maybe Cakewalk has a memory leak in the Freeze area of the software?

Edited September 25, 2022 by El Diablo

[Antre]

9 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

I'm curious, are you running any VST2 and VST3 plugins mixed?   If I run VST2 and VST3 plugins mixed together I end up getting delays and crashes.  I started only using VST3 .... I'll only use VST2 plugins in my projects IF I Freeze them right after as long as they are not the original cakewalk plugins.   The only plugins I can't freeze without crashing cakewalk is Dimension Pro, Beatscape, and Rapture Pro which are old VST2 software from Sonar Producer 8.5.3.  SSOOOOO... Try NOT to mix VST2 and VST3 ... then see if that fixes your delay issues.  Try not to use ANY old Sonar bundled plugins.

Dimension Pro, Beatscape, and Rapture Pro has no issues running in Sonar Producer 8.5.3 and will freeze just fine, but if they run in Cakewalk 2022.06 build 34, they will crash Cakewalk on freeze.  So maybe Cakewalk has a memory leak in the Freeze area of the software?

Thanks, but I did a test with NO plugins

[GTsongwriter]

4 minutes ago, Antre said:

Thanks, but I did a test with NO plugins

I know this sounds stupid, but I've been zoomed out so far that I didn't place the tracks right at 01:01:000 and there was a delay. Did you double check to make sure all the music starts at 01:01:000 M:B:T?   AND you not showing the picture of your tracks, I could replicate that issue just by doing that.

Edited September 25, 2022 by El Diablo

[Antre]

Just to be clear,

I love this software because I mixed and recorded a dozens albums and singles with it.

No complaining's here, I just can not ignore this issue any more and I was curious is it only me.

[Antre]

here's the TEST:

I instaled fresh and first ever CbB on my son super mighty PC configured for all new games (regardles possible graphic issue witch I also considered for possible reson).

1.

I started to add tracks (audio files, no plugins, no VST, no VST3, no VSTi, no DX, no...)  - 50 tracks - no delay.

100 tracks - maybe a little bit...

130 tracks - little delay on PLAY and big delay/meter freeze on STOP

130 tracks/pro channels ON - little delay on PLAY and HUGE delay on STOP

2.

I added  same 130 audio tracks to Reaper and Soundbridge on MY LAPTOP 

Reaper plays and stops INSTANTLY

Soundbridge plays and stop INSTANTLY (but with pops and glitches)

[GTsongwriter]

7 minutes ago, Antre said:

here's the TEST:

I instaled fresh and first ever CbB on my son super mighty PC configured for all new games (regardles possible graphic issue witch I also considered for possible reson).

1.

I started to add tracks (audio files, no plugins, no VST, no VST3, no VSTi, no DX, no...)  - 50 tracks - no delay.

100 tracks - maybe a little bit...

130 tracks - little delay on PLAY and big delay/meter freeze on STOP

130 tracks/pro channels ON - little delay on PLAY and HUGE delay on STOP

2.

I added  same 130 audio tracks to Reaper and Soundbridge on MY LAPTOP 

Reaper plays and stops INSTANTLY

Soundbridge plays and stop INSTANTLY (but with pops and glitches)

If your serious,

I have an idea you can do.

Go to your preferences > Sync and Caching > File System > and uncheck Enable Read Caching and Enable Write Caching so that you don't use your hard drive to play read and write to... This should force Cakewalk to use RAM only.

In Preferences > Midi > Playback and Recording > Playback ... please tell us what your Buffers are set to for Millisecond Buffers.

Edited September 25, 2022 by El Diablo

[Antre]

5 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

If your serious,

I have an idea you can do.

Go to your preferences > Sync and Caching > File System > and uncheck Enable Read Caching and Enable Write Caching so that you don't use your hard drive to play read and write to... This should force Cakewalk to use RAM only.

In Preferences > Midi > Playback and Recording > Playback ... please tell us what your Buffers are set to for Millisecond Buffers.

thats unchecked already

[GTsongwriter]

3 minutes ago, Antre said:

thats unchecked already

Hold on a minute... I'll create a video of me duplicating 50 audio only tracks, no plugins or anything and i'll upload it to my Youtube channel and repost here.

[Antre]

10 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Hold on a minute... I'll create a video of me duplicating 50 audio only tracks, no plugins or anything and i'll upload it to my Youtube channel and repost here.

try 130

[hockeyjx]

3 minutes ago, Antre said:

try 130

So, 130 audio tracks on old hardware and Win8.1?  A lot to ask, regardless of your DAW choice. Also, WHY 130 tracks?

[Antre]

3 minutes ago, hockeyjx said:

So, 130 audio tracks on old hardware and Win8.1?  A lot to ask, regardless of your DAW choice. Also, WHY 130 tracks?

Read the test I did with my laptop and w10 gaming Pc

[GTsongwriter]

Computer: ASUS Gaming Laptop - G752VL,  Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700HQ CPU @ 2.60GHz, 2592 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s), 32 GB RAM, M.2 2TB

At 400 tracks, only 10% of the CPU used and about 7 GB of RAM.

400 tracks with no delay and I'm going to post a video to prove it.   I bet cakewalk to easily handle 1000 tracks with no delay.

 

[GTsongwriter]

15 minutes ago, Antre said:

Read the test I did with my laptop and w10 gaming Pc

I'm going to have to agree with hockeyjx.   Any PC can be considered gaming PC.  You need to tell us SPECS.   What kind of CHIP is in your PC, GHZ your PC is running, RAM, what kind of Storage are you running ??  Hard drive is SATA HDD, SSD, M.2 SSD, or  NVMe ??  ETC

To find your system specs...

Windows 7, 8, or 10: Use the Run Box

Hit Windows+R to open the Run box. Type “msinfo32” into the “Open” field, and then hit Enter. You should immediately see the System Information panel.

you can ctrl + c to copy from them and ctrl + v to past them in your response.

we need Processor, System Manufacture, System Model, OS Name, Installed Physical Memory (RAM), Available Physical Memory to better understand if your situation.