Cakewalk - the only DAW with playback delay issue?

[Antre]

When play pressed there is a delay before audio starts playing and this delay is longer if the project is bigger.

For me it was always like this, on several computers during decades using Cakewalk, and it was always extremely annoying.

Along Cakewalk I use few others DAWs and I tried probably every existing DAW - NONE OF THEM IS BEHAVING LIKE THIS.

?

[azslow3]

As you can guess, most user don't have such issue with Cakewalk.

But there can be several reasons (and combinations of them) why you observe it. Please specify: your audio interface, Windows version, audio settings in Cakewalk (driver model and the buffer related numbers), what is approximate delay if the project has one track with single audio clip, does the delay on real project changes if you disable all FXes and either you use or have ever installed ASIO4ALL on this computer. Then the list of suggestions what to check/change/update can be reasonably small.

[Antre]

4 hours ago, azslow3 said:

As you can guess, most user don't have such issue with Cakewalk.

But there can be several reasons (and combinations of them) why you observe it. Please specify: your audio interface, Windows version, audio settings in Cakewalk (driver model and the buffer related numbers), what is approximate delay if the project has one track with single audio clip, does the delay on real project changes if you disable all FXes and either you use or have ever installed ASIO4ALL on this computer. Then the list of suggestions what to check/change/update can be reasonably small.

Interface: Mackie Onyx Blackbird or built in driver

Win: 8.1

Audio settings: depends - Asio and I change buffer size regulary for mixing, recording - SAME DELAY ALWAYS. All other driver modes (WDM, Wasapi...). SAME DELAY ALWAYS

One track, single audio clip: NO DELAY, NO PROBLEM

Bypass all FX on full project: SAME DELAY

ASIO4ALL: it was installed several times, not now...

On full project playback delay can be one or two seconds. When stopped Cakewalk freezes same amount of time (meters stuck).

Here's the thing:

I'm using this software, as I already sad, for 20+ years. And it was always like this. No metter witch PC, laptop, windows version or audio interface I use. I NEVER experience this behavior on ANY OTHER DAW. That is the only thing that is keeping me away from this program witch I used to use regulary.

Am I realy alone in this one?

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Antre

[John Vere]

Your probably not alone but it is not normal. You might want to post one of the projects that behaves this way and others can see what happens using their systems. You can share projects in drop box etc. 

My guess is it’s a plug in you always have used. 
You say this happens with all audio interfaces but have you ever used a good one?  The Mackie driver is not that great. I used to have one a few years ago with a mixer my band used. 

[Antre]

24 minutes ago, Cactus Music said:

Your probably not alone but it is not normal. You might want to post one of the projects that behaves this way and others can see what happens using their systems. You can share projects in drop box etc. 

My guess is it’s a plug in you always have used. 
You say this happens with all audio interfaces but have you ever used a good one?  The Mackie driver is not that great. I used to have one a few years ago with a mixer my band used. 

OK, I did a quick test with one project, 26 tracks, several busses

Deleted all vst plugins, saved - reopen - SAME DELAY ISSUE

I than started to delete prochanel modules - then I deleted all console and tape modules and DELAY got significaly smaller - half a second. But it is stil THERE.

In every driver mode - so it isnt a Mackie Issue. Mackie and built in drivers works in other DAWS.

Point is that in every other DAW I can hog a project with bunch of plugins, eventualy i will get pops and audio driver error or something but when I press play it will play instantly and stop instantly.

Same project with same plugins, same number of tracks works flawlessly in other programs.

Again - this is the only DAW behaving this way. I always have an impression that CAKEWALK/SONAR is made to work like this, and it is frustrating.

[azslow3]

It can be coincidence, but I had the issue ONCE. And it was on Win 8.1, after I have installed ASIO4ALL. All interfaces (that time M-Audio, SB Live and Realtek) in all modes was behaving "not normal". There was delays in playback start and I had to increase the buffer size. Uninstalling ASIO4ALL (and reinstalling other drivers) has not helped. I could not find a reason nor a single tip in the Internet. The problem has disappeared after the next major Windows update (I was lucky, it was just 1 week later).
Since I have not understood from where it was, I can't give you any advise if the origin is the same.

But since you has that since 20 year on all systems, the origin is probably different. And no, Cakewalk is not made to work like this.

• before any future tests/investigations, make sure "Share Drivers With Other Programs" is unchecked in Cakewalk preferences, Windows audio is not pointing to the same device (for input or output), set the sample rate in Windows settings for audio interface as in current Cakewalk project,  close all other programs.
• Since with single track/clip you have no delay, try to find the operation which introduce the delays. Duplicate that single track, every time checking there is still no delay. Try to record new clips. Important: don't just import clips, depending from settings that can trigger real-time bit-rate conversion which in turn under some conditions can trigger the effect. Do not add any effects yet, do not activate anything in ProChannel. Depending from the possibility to have no delay with 20-30 simple tracks you can later narrow what you can check.

BTW what is your Antivirus/Antimalware software? Have you excluded Cakewalk as the program and related files as folders from continuous monitoring by Antivirus/Antimalware?  While you can think that is unrelated, many people are using the same antivirus company for decades... and when it performs scans on every file access, that can introduce interesting "freezes" in operations (depending from the software, in my experience Windows Defender is most transparent in that respect... well.. not with Melodyne...).

[Antre]

8 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

It can be coincidence, but I had the issue ONCE. And it was on Win 8.1, after I have installed ASIO4ALL. All interfaces (that time M-Audio, SB Live and Realtek) in all modes was behaving "not normal". There was delays in playback start and I had to increase the buffer size. Uninstalling ASIO4ALL (and reinstalling other drivers) has not helped. I could not find a reason nor a single tip in the Internet. The problem has disappeared after the next major Windows update (I was lucky, it was just 1 week later).
Since I have not understood from where it was, I can't give you any advise if the origin is the same.

But since you has that since 20 year on all systems, the origin is probably different. And no, Cakewalk is not made to work like this.

• before any future tests/investigations, make sure "Share Drivers With Other Programs" is unchecked in Cakewalk preferences, Windows audio is not pointing to the same device (for input or output), set the sample rate in Windows settings for audio interface as in current Cakewalk project,  close all other programs.
• Since with single track/clip you have no delay, try to find the operation which introduce the delays. Duplicate that single track, every time checking there is still no delay. Try to record new clips. Important: don't just import clips, depending from settings that can trigger real-time bit-rate conversion which in turn under some conditions can trigger the effect. Do not add any effects yet, do not activate anything in ProChannel. Depending from the possibility to have no delay with 20-30 simple tracks you can later narrow what you can check.

BTW what is your Antivirus/Antimalware software? Have you excluded Cakewalk as the program and related files as folders from continuous monitoring by Antivirus/Antimalware?  While you can think that is unrelated, many people are using the same antivirus company for decades... and when it performs scans on every file access, that can introduce interesting "freezes" in operations (depending from the software, in my experience Windows Defender is most transparent in that respect... well.. not with Melodyne...).

Thanks, I will try those...

no antivirus software

short video of the issue:

 

[David Baay]

35 minutes ago, Antre said:

Point is that in every other DAW I can hog a project with bunch of plugins, eventualy i will get pops and audio driver error or something but when I press play it will play instantly and stop instantly.

That's the typical experience for other CW users, too. It's especially unusual that this issue has persisted across multiple platform. As suggested, anti-virsu seems a likely candidate. I only ever experienced something like this when windows Defender's Real-time Scanning mode became  spontaneously enabled by a Windows Update with no directories excluded..

Another thing to try would be to rename your AUD.INI file (or use the button in Preferences > Config File to Reset Defaults).

And definitely get rid of any 3d-party drivers like ASIO4All and Steinberg's 'Generic Low Latency ASIO Driver' installed by Cubase.

BTW, CbB is technically no longer supported on Win 7 or 8.1 although I know there are a significant number of users still on 7 with no issues.

Edited September 15, 2022 by David Baay

[Glenn Stanton]

45 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

... in my experience Windows Defender is most transparent in that respect... well.. not with Melodyne...

i put my Melodyne separation folder into my project space so it's excluded from the A/V, as well as excluding Melodyne itself, plus the .nff files, etc. and it seems to ignore the Melodyne app / plugin and related folders. keeps the transfers and separations off my C drive as well ? 

[azslow3]

3 hours ago, Antre said:

no antivirus software

short video of the issue:

Yes, unusual. And it doesn't look like coming for mastering plug-ins. While they also delay things, the result is visually different (also bypassing FX works for them).

One more simple check: unset all audio in/outs in Cakewalk preferences, so no audio drivers are used. Check playback reaction.

Also check the system activity during start/stop (HDD LED, Windows task manager and resource meter, looking for spikes in disk or CPU usage). Also there can be issues with GPU drivers, but in last 20 years you have probably changed many GPUs...

If you was moving your Sonar/Cakewalk configuration from system to system, may be it is worse to try run Cakewalk in empty content, f.e. under different user.

[Jeremy Oakes]

Watched your video, the delay is like half a second. 

I’m no expert nor as knowledgeable as some, but that doesn’t seem all that excessive to me.  YMMV

J

[Starship Krupa]

A couple of years ago I was working on an audio project and it started to exhibit this behavior. It was just the one project, and I eventually resolved it with the help of the devs, but I can't remember what I/we did to solve it. It had other issues as well, like scrolling up and down with the mousewheel had a crazy amount of delay. I sent my project file in to them and they examined it and figured out the issue and made changes to Cakewalk which solved it. This suggests that there may be multiple things that can trigger the behavior.

As others have suggested, maybe try a complete fresh install of Cakewalk, try recording some simple tracks and see what happens.

You've obviously been very diligent in trying to troubleshoot this. It's probably time to contact official support, who can get the attention of the devs if they themselves can't help you fix it. Believe me, the devs will want to know about this.

As others have said, it's not happening for them, but it's entirely possible that it's happening for an unknown number of people who don't visit the forum and/or just switched to another DAW when they couldn't work it out.

Cakewalk is under new management. The devs are much more able to address issues like this quickly than they were in the past.

[Glenn Stanton]

so, a couple of checks if not already doing them: LatencyMon to check if there are things in your system contributing to delays. also, even in the world of everything-is-usb, the underlying tech (in most cases) is still PCI or some other bus - which can be impacted by system interrupts from things like keyboard/mouse, disks, other peripherals, printers, outboard gear, etc. so using tools like HWInfo can show you the list of things connected to your USB ports and related busses and then you can restack your devices to minimise the interactions. for example, my audio i/o has the USB3/PCI bus all to itself. my keyboards and MIDI gears on a USB2/PCI, and my mouse/keyboard/iLok/etc are all on another USB2/PCI.  my internal disks show up as PCI and they're separate. note: all these "separations" though are "time shared", ultimately, since my main device is a laptop (at the moment) and not a desktop with more busses and memory channels etc.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Glenn Stanton

[Will.]

Try turning the 64 bit double precision engine off (if you have it on.) 

Lastly: Make sure that your Mackie driver is the only driver making use of your computer. I have never bothered with Win 8, but i believe the steps are the same. So you might want to go to control panel, audio drivers and disable every other sound drivers thats installed on your PC. From Realtek to software that install drivers unknowingly, like music players, video editors, video/music converters, lame drivers and certain codec software. Also check and replace the cables of your Mackie BB. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Will.

[hockeyjx]

Is there some reason to stay on Win 8? I'd run and not walk from it!

That said, hopefully you fix your issue.

[John Nelson]

The Blackbird came with a mixer utility. Have you checked and made sure it's not introducing a delay?

The BB was a firewire ? interface and that protocol is mighty long in the tooth. Might want to find a new USB interface and utilize your Onxy channels via ADAT.

[Hill62]

On 9/15/2022 at 5:07 PM, Jeremy Oakes said:

Watched your video, the delay is like half a second. 

I’m no expert nor as knowledgeable as some, but that doesn’t seem all that excessive to me.  YMMV

J

I agree. That is milliseconds delay maybe. I don't see a major issue there. If there was an issue recording, any delay can be a concern. Sounds like the recording side has been fine.

For an older OS, PC and sound card, it seems to be responding reasonably. 

lots of suggestions here to try though. It's a nice supportive community. 

[Antre]

Big thanks for nice and supportive community and for all of yours suggestions.

One second, half a second, milisecond - only in CbB. Thats the point.

I opened a blank project and started to add tracks. As number of tracks gets bigger (no plugins) delay gets bigger. 50 tracks - more then one second delay. Plus delay on stop. When you work you hit play/stop/play. Thats two seconds of delay on stop/play. When I was younger maybe had nerves for that.

Lets forget about all the settings and think about this: Same number of tracks, same audio settings in other DAWs here - no problemo. As I already sad I never experienced this kind of behaviour outside the CbB and Sonar.

I cannot be suspicios on OS, PC or sound card or any problem outside CbB becose I never had this issue in other programs. 

So for me the title questions remains...

[David Baay]

What you're encountering is an 'interoperability' issue; it only manifests when software x is running on platform y and can be eliminated by changing either of those variables. Just as you don't experience the issue with other software running on the same platform, many users do not experience the issue with the same software running other platforms. In your case, since you've reportedly seen it on different systems with different interfaces, this suggests that the specific configuration of preferences and/or project setup/content (aside from just having a lot of tracks) or other software on the system may also be contributing.

The blame for an interoperability issue cannot be assigned to either the software or the platform without a proper root cause analysis;  either or both could be doing something 'unexpected' per some design 'standard' that causes the issue to manifest.

This is not something the forum community can easily help resolve unless someone happens to have seen it and resolved it for themselves.

[Colin Nicholls]

If it really bothers you, use a different DAW.