Seeking advice on a setup to use Cakewalk live

[Pathfinder]

since I posted I got 5.66 and liked it OK. I will look for 5.8-Thanks as always!

Edited September 9, 2022 by Pathfinder

[John Vere]

I think they removed 5.8 with the new update so if you have issues finding it let me know in a PM. 
I think the main difference between 5.6 and 5.8 is the WASAPI support for W10 which probably makes no difference for playback 

[Harddrive]

I use CbB live with my synthpop duo

My partner is totally self contained, using three M-Audio USB keyboards to control the vast array of VST synths in Reason. 

I have CbB running in Playlist Mode with Sets 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B on my desktop.

I have recorded multitrack versions of songs which are mixed but not finalised into two track. If and when my partner plays whatever he does, I split the track and mute the part so he plays in with the mix. It works pretty well save for some problems with drivers sometimes when my laptop boots. I also have part backing vocals recorded by me minus the harmonic part he is singing. 

I also dedicate a track to controlling my TC Helicon Voicelive Rack (mutes, programme changes, effects assignments). I have my Roland AX Synth playing via wireless MIDI through CbB to play sounds on my own Roland FA06 which is fully loaded with the extensive soundsets and in 16 channel mode. I can play either the layered sounds on that from my AX or the AXs soundsets (although Roland have pissed many off by not having a dedicated laptop based editor). Finally, I have a MIDI track assigned to control our lighting rig - LED pars, moving heads, lasers and haze machine - via the DMXIS VST plug in. It takes a lot of time, patience and dedication, but it's worth it.

We recently took the whole rig onstage at a local festival and it was excellent. My partner and I gig twice or three times a month. The audience love it but aren't much aware of the hard work that goes on to create the event. They also don't know that all that spectacular event is created by freeware.

I started my journey in programming with Breakthru, moved onto a QY20, then Cubase for Windows 3.1 and finally Pro Audio 9. I've had Sonar 3 and Sonar 8 and just 'evolved' with CbB which ticks all the boxes and is firstly easy to manipulate and easy to mix with. If Cakewalk fixed the annoying traits like stop indicators it wwould be fabulous.

HARDDRIVE

Edited September 10, 2022 by Harddrive

[isingit@netscape.net]

Oh I don't comment much and not savvy w the acronyms. I'm liking these comments they are very germane to what I need to know. What is CbB? Is it Bandlab Cakewalk? I've used WinAmp and love that you can have more than one instance of it open at the same time, thus two identical playlists open or different ones to quickly pick next from a large list, plus STOP at end of ea play, it's essential. I use very old computers bc the software & hardware I find easiest and WORKS (PCDJ Red 5.2) also stops after each play but has a kill date and won't work with anything after XP! So old but works. Have to keep comp OFF WiFi, never update, and backdate the comp too.  Made for DJ's so A & B players can keep music going when needed. Again, old tech.

Edited December 2, 2022 by isingit@netscape.net

[User 905133]

48 minutes ago, isingit@netscape.net said:

Oh I don't comment much and not savvy w the acronyms. I'm liking these comments they are very germane to what I need to know. What is CbB? Is it Bandlab Cakewalk? I've used WinAmp and love that you can have more than one instance of it open at the same time, thus two identical playlists open or different ones to quickly pick next from a large list, plus STOP at end of ea play, it's essential. I use very old computers bc the software & hardware I find easiest and WORKS (PCDJ Red 5.2) also stops after each play but has a kill date and won't work with anything after XP! So old but works. Have to keep comp OFF WiFi, never update, and backdate the comp too.  Made for DJ's so A & B players can keep music going when needed. Again, old tech.

CbB = Cakewalk by Bandlab, a Windows-based DAW [Digital Audio Workstation]

Bandlab is the owner of Cakewalk by Bandlab who also owns the web-based browser music productivity called Bandlab.

I have used WinAmp (including the use of multiple instances), but not as discussed above.

If you are using a 32-bit PC with XP or an earlier Microsoft OS [Operating System], CbB is not for you.  From what I understand, it is no longer safe to use web browsers under XP, if that's even possible. I have not tried to run Bandlab on an XP, but I would be extremely surprised if it worked.

I just looked up PCDJ Red.  It looks like very old software from 2008 and was discontinued at least 10 years ago, according to the 2022 PCDJ website.

JMO [Just My Opinion]: If PCDJ works for you, don't let anyone tell you you have to get a newer PC and newer software.  On the other hand, if you want to upgrade your hardware and software, that's up to you.

Edited December 2, 2022 by User 905133
added some details

[remyhardy]

Hi Harddrive,

About this : (Finally, I have a MIDI track assigned to control our lighting rig - LED pars, moving heads, lasers and haze machine - via the DMXIS VST plug in. It takes a lot of time, patience and dedication, but it's worth it.)

this is exactly what I wanna do,

-can you post some screen shot of example of a lighting track (midi command etc). 
-so you control by this pluf in, what is the physical interface DMX-midi you are using for it?

do you need to use another software to make the lighting scenes?

 

thank you

Remy

[Starship Krupa]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:56 AM, John Vere said:

It has a weird history....

Which includes being responsible for the creation of REAPER. The founder of Nullsoft took his money from the AOL buyout and started Cockos.

[John Vere]

@remyhardyIt was a long time ago but my brief use of Midi with DMX  was the DMX controller board stored scenes and that was All I did so it was as simple as sending a program change to the controller. Very basic light show. We never did the flashing lights in time thing it wasn't really appropriate for the type of places we played. I think I used Ch 16. I'm sure I could have dimmed the lights too and I do believe that would be using CC events just like music. But I think each light needed it's own midi channel?? Sorry can't remember that was the 80's.  

My plans were to look for a very basic DMX controller to use with my cheepo LED lights and use Cakewalks Playlist instead of Win Amp. I would still only use mastered wave files in the projects with the say 3 tracks, Bass, Drums, Keyboards. Then 2 midi tracks. One for lights and one for my Lexicon processor. Down the road possibly a guitar pedal board that used midi.  

[remyhardy]

@John Vere, I see. But i just bouht a DMX open from enttec to test it and I will try to understand how it works with CBB,  but i figure that it could be done in one track with the plugin in it but i don t know yet how it works. If someone can explain how to set it up with a soft like freestyler instead of a physical console, i would appreciate it. 
 

[John Vere]

Generally the DMX controller responds to midi information. When I did it I just used a midi track and placed pg changes where needed. I would guess that the list of Midi events and DMX is easily found. 

[JnTuneTech]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:00 AM, remyhardy said:

About this : (Finally, I have a MIDI track assigned to control our lighting rig - LED pars, moving heads, lasers and haze machine - via the DMXIS VST plug in. It takes a lot of time, patience and dedication, but it's worth it.)

this is exactly what I wanna do

I had a post about this somewhere on the old forums, seems like!  Anyway, I used to play live with Cakewalk as my backing band (proudly programmed/recorded mostly also by myself), and I eventually added lights & DMX controls to the live projects, also tried using the DMXIS VST plugin. -I dumped the plugin in favor of using the standalone DMXIS control app and having Cakewalk MIDI tracks control that for the live lighting control.

My method is a bit time consuming to both initially set up, and even explain, but basically, I use the DMXIS by Entech USB to DMX interface (I think they still make them) as my DMX output device. (-That is also how I got the bundled DMXIS app & license, etc.) -I also use a free app on Windows called LoopMIDI - this allows one to route MIDI from one Windows app to another (by creating virtual MIDI ports).

So, long story short, you create a MIDI track, or several, in Cakewalk to control the DMXIS app - such as change presets, control individual faders, so you can even control individual fixture DMX features that way. -It gets complicated though, and I made my own custom setups for the whole thing to work, but that even allows me to put automation lanes in Cakewalk that, via creating .ins definitions, show the fixtures/parameters I am automating by name in Cakewalk. I could also match patch changes to DMXIS presets that way too, but it seemed too rigid that way.

Anyway, I don't know that my method would be a project for an easy lighting rig setup, but my overall point is that Cakewalk for sound backing and DMXIS for lighting control can work together quite well, at least in my experience. -Everyone has differing approaches to it, naturally, and the one that you like and understand the best is the way to go!

[John Vere]

I was using an Atari so I’d be very surprised if Cakewalk couldn’t do what I did in 1988.  
I used to get stuck doing lights for the gigs i was was doing sound for and slowly learned my way around the world of lights and DMX stuff.  You need to be on acid to do a decent job of it.  

[remyhardy]

Thank you  jn Tune Tech, sounds good. I bought the enttec open as below so i can try it when I receive it in 6 days from now and I’ll tell you about it. What I don’t know is if I will get the licence of DMXIS included with it and also if the midi will work with this model. Thx again, I appreciate

[JnTuneTech]

Wow, thanks for the screenshot - looks like a different model than what I use, but the same manufacturer.  -Just a few notes also wanted to mention: Cakewalk doesn't address DMX directly, in fact MIDI itself is not convertible as such. That is why, when you buy a USB to DMX interface, you will need an appropriate program of some kind to access it. That is possible in Cakewalk with something like the DMXIS VST plugin, however that one is rather limited in scope, in my experiences with it.

I also recall not liking to use the plugin, because by default, when the DMXIS plugin loses contact with the USB, the lights all go to zero (off). So, every time I closed a Cakewalk project to open another one (I generally put one song per project together for live events, and choose on the fly), the lights would all zero out. -Perhaps DMXIS has changed this - I would check the DMXIS forum - they used to be fairly good at answering questions, similar to the great folks here.

And again, in general, to use a DMX adapter, you will have to have some kind of controller. You mentioned some other visualization type of app I think, as what you may want to be using. You will in any case need something, and that something has to be compatible with (so it will recognize) the USB adapter you choose first. Then, many such apps are MIDI controllable - and if so, that is where you would possibly get to add MIDI control tracking from within Cakewalk. This forum is aimed mostly at Cakewalk - so you may only get advice on that particular part of the solution here!    -I'm sure whatever happens, it will be an interesting adventure, I really love being able to play a show from within Cakewalk, and have all of the sound, lights, & hazers, etc. synced up when I just hit play.   -Cheers!

[remyhardy]

Ok great, I’ll check it when I get the interface

thx

[remyhardy]

@JnTuneTech ikeep on testing my open dmx from entec, using it with loopBE1 (witch is like loopmidi) and QLC+ for now, so far I can make it work and I now wanna control it by midi in cakewalk. Could you share an example of your .ins file for me to understand more how you use midi commands to control your fixtures and scenes please. I still don’t understand how I can find a plan or create one to control them (Program change, CC, notes etc) so an example of .ins file will help me to figure it I guess as well as if you know a link that can explane how midi commands affect fictures and scenes. Thx

Edited March 26, 2023 by remyhardy

[JnTuneTech]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:21 AM, remyhardy said:

using it with loopBE1 (witch is like loopmidi) and QLC+

@remyhardy I'm glad to hear you got some progress. And the basic concept is all I can help with here. -Any .ins file from my setup using DMXIS would only make sense if you were using that app as your lighting control software. I don't know anything about QLC+, and again, these other programs are best supported by their own forums & support. Cakewalk is wonderful for integrating audio & MIDI control, to be sure, and once you get the specifics of what you need to control, there may be ways folks here can help with clarifying that, if needed.

So, the basic concept: MIDI control works by using digital values, some of which are defined by historical standards, but most beyond those that apply to musical notes & basic expressions are up to each individual program to define & publish for others to use.

In your case, you need to find out what MIDI values are available to control in the app you want to use, -such as QLC+. Once you have that, in a basic situation you could create an .ins file for Cakewalk to use, in helping to map the available functions, when you are using MIDI in Cakewalk to control that particular app.

It may be very simple, as perhaps you only need to control the program change within the app, or, in many cases with lighting control, you may need to map out a control for each desired function between Cakewalk and the lighting app. In addition, some of those functions may have to be manually programmed in the other app first, -as I do in fact with DMXIS. -Only then can Cakewalk be set up to follow those functions with a matching .ins map, basically.

-This all assumes you understand there are many more layers involved, far beyond the Cakewalk MIDI control.   I would strongly suggest you learn all you can about your DMX control app first, as that will also lead you to understanding DMX lighting fixture control - which is an entirely different set of controls & mapping in of itself, but prerequisite to doing anything with all the above mentioned MIDI control. -And then, learn how the DMX control app can be set up to respond to outside MIDI controls, from the documentation it must provide for that.

Only after you know what you can do with the lighting from the control app, and exactly what part of that can be controlled with an outside MIDI control command set, can you even begin to set up your Cakewalk MIDI control map & tracking.  -It can be a lot, but it can also be rewarding, and, if you learn all the concepts, you will also gain a better understanding of MIDI control in general, as well as how to make your own specific .ins files for Cakewalk.

[remyhardy]

Ok, thx a lot JN, it helped me a lot. Finally I made my ins file and doubled it to have more room than the basic 127 control change. The Program change was not stable so I chose to work with the control change and value. Seem to work well so far so I’ll make a basic midi track of lighting (4/4) and copy it to different songs and then correct the punch of the song only, the track should follow the midi tempo so that should save much time I guess.

to be continued and hope that will help others to do it..  thx again @JnTuneTech

Edited April 3, 2023 by remyhardy

[JnTuneTech]

@remyhardy -Thanks to you as well - in researching this subject again during these postings, I re-connected with my DMXIS software, & the Cakewalk projects I have used it with, -it's been a while!  -In fact, I found that DMXIS is no longer available (new), but has been replaced by the programmer, with a more visual app (maybe similar to what you are talking about), and I can even use my old settings if I decide to upgrade!

It also claims to have a VST plugin version, but I have not tested to see if it still has the limitation of it shutting down all the light fixtures to 0 every time you change projects in Cakewalk... That is pretty much just a limitation of DMX itself though, since standard DMX has no feedback protocol to let a controller know "where" the light settings are at, and so you can only clear the board and start anew, or risk mixing a new set of presets on top of another... but I digress!

-Anyway, glad to hear you have found some techniques that will work for you, as I have said before, it's great to have a Cakewalk project control both sound & lights (and in fact any MIDI controllable device) all at once.  -Cheers.

[remyhardy]

Hey @JnTuneTech, I’ taking a chance here,  Cause I know you re better than me in CbB. How to transform midi notes into a repeated note of the same pitch for the duration of the key hold.  I found a way to do it but when hitting more than 1 note at a time, the 2 notes repeat alternatively so not good, any idea?