Audio and Aux tracks.

[Will.]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

"The Mono/Stereo button  in each track forces the track’s audio signal to enter any patched plug-ins as either mono or stereo, whether or not the tracks are mono or stereo. This allows you to use either mono effects on a stereo track or stereo effects on a mono track.

Not to argue here, but im well aware of how this works. Not the the point of the subject. 

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

"Mono audio clips may be increased by 3 dB in certain scenarios

There are some situations where the level of a mono clip will be increased by 3 dB if the track's output interleave (mono/stereo toggle) is set to mono:

Now you're on the right path on the subject. Hence to why I had asked the initial question.

On 8/27/2022 at 2:31 AM, Will. said:

Am I correct to assume that Cakewalks Audio, Aux and bus tracks are duplicates of one (the same) Audio Track within itself? 

This is why I've asked this. So, and basically (again) is just two Audio Tracks in one track called an "Aux" and when setting the interleave to Mono it collapses the two, by placing one (either L or R channel) on top of the other? Meaning if you have just the slightest bleed into the right channel - that information will be added to your collapsed mono track? 

Then there's the input subject. My experience with an outboard insert patching board - this works straightforwardly. When patching a mono insert to a bus you get a clean (no boost in dB) mono input into an Aux on an outboard mixing console. Meaning: If I had a drum snare that was recorded on the left channel, the Left channel would be sent to the Aux Patch and be panned centered giving you a clean one-channel mono insert on an aux.  

In other words (please correct me if I'm wrong) with Cakewalk's pan law set at -3dB with the L-R channels collapsed (and when centered there's a -3dB volume different to balance things) it splits the two channels of one audio track (the duplicated audio track that creates the stereo output) internally and places its left channel down the center bringing the level back to 0dB (unity) causing the second channel (right channel) to sit on top down the center which then creates that +3dB boost? 

[Will.]

I'm not arguing things. The knowledge gaining from this might help another (especially newbies) to understand what happens under the hood to make better decision throughout their workflow. 

[msmcleod]

An Aux track is simply an audio track that has a patch point as its input.

You can prove this by creating a patch point and audio track separately, and then setting the input of the audio track to the patch point:

One thing you might have noticed...  both the send to the patch point in your audio track,  and the input of the Aux track list the Patch Point Left, Right & Stereo.

So to create mono aux track, you just make sure you're sending to Left from the Audio track,  and have the input set to Left on your Aux track.

You can also send (or have the track output) to one side of an Aux track, but have the Aux track stereo.... this can be useful if you're using an external insert with two separate mono external effects.

So for example:

Guitar Track ->  Aux 1 Track Left
Bass Track -> Aux 1 Track Right
Aux 1 with External Insert in FX bin, outputting to a new stereo patch point (let's call it Patch Point 2)

Now creating two audio tracks sourced from Patch Point 2 L/R, gives us the signal after the external effects.

Patch Point 2 Left -> Guitar Aux Post EFX 
Patch Point 2 Right -> Bass Aux Post EFX
 

[Will.]

7 hours ago, msmcleod said:

An Aux track is simply an audio track that has a patch point as its input.

You can prove this by creating a patch point and audio track separately, and then setting the input of the audio track to the patch point:

One thing you might have noticed...  both the send to the patch point in your audio track,  and the input of the Aux track list the Patch Point Left, Right & Stereo.

So to create mono aux track, you just make sure you're sending to Left from the Audio track,  and have the input set to Left on your Aux track.

You can also send (or have the track output) to one side of an Aux track, but have the Aux track stereo.... this can be useful if you're using an external insert with two separate mono external effects.

So for example:

Guitar Track ->  Aux 1 Track Left
Bass Track -> Aux 1 Track Right
Aux 1 with External Insert in FX bin, outputting to a new stereo patch point (let's call it Patch Point 2)

Now creating two audio tracks sourced from Patch Point 2 L/R, gives us the signal after the external effects.

Patch Point 2 Left -> Guitar Aux Post EFX 
Patch Point 2 Right -> Bass Aux Post EFX
 

Appreciate the feedback, but i'm not talking about how to create a Aux or setting up a patch point. 

The question is why dont the input change to mono? 

Heres what i'm talking about. 

1: Insert TTS-1.

2: Choose the Stereo Piano preset. 

3: Create and Audio Track. 

4: Go to the Audio tracks Input, Cakewalk TTS-1 and choose the output 1 L and solo the track. Flip between L and S. 

Now the question is: why doesnt the input do this with the effects? 

Do the top steps with two mono tracks. Snare and a long Bass Note. Route the Bass Track to an Aux track. Create the Haas effect, insert a compressor and sidechain the snare to the compressor tweak the compressor to taste or aggressively if you cant hear the effect that well. Lastly put the send of the snare in Pre and -INF out its dB. Can you hear the ducking down the middle? I didn't get the mono bleed down the middle outside CbB with a console - its strictly "haas'd," because of having the option to sent the sends  individually. Though to be fair, I don't know the studio's full setup, so there might be routing patches that are different to what I know.  

Edited August 28, 2022 by Will.

[David Baay]

I'm having a hard time following all the different scenarios you've posed and understanding what your expectation is in each case so I'll just say this:

By my count there are 4096 combinations of the following variables (not including side-chaining). No human on the planet is going to be able to keep in mind which of these combinations will produce nulling source and aux tracks. My advice is just to be aware of all these variables and experiment in the moment to get the desired result in a given situation. And maybe make yourself a 'cheat sheet' for specific scenarios you find yourself using repeatedly.

- Source Input (m/s clip w/ or w/o Input Echo, m/s live input, m/s synth)

- Aux Input (l/r or s from the Patch Point)

- Source Interleave

- Aux Interleave

- Centered or Panned Source

- Send Pan Follows Track Pan

- Grouped or Centered Aux Pan

- Mono/Stereo FX on the source track

- Mono/Stereo FX on the Aux track

- 0dB or Non-Zero Center Pan Law 

 

[Will.]

6 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I'm having a hard time following all the different scenarios you've posed and understanding what your expectation is in each case so I'll just say this:

By my count there are 4096 combinations of the following variables (not including side-chaining). No human on the planet is going to be able to keep in mind which of these combinations will produce nulling source and aux tracks. My advice is just to be aware of all these variables and experiment in the moment to get the desired result in a given situation. And maybe make yourself a 'cheat sheet' for specific scenarios you find yourself using repeatedly.

- Source Input (m/s clip w/ or w/o Input Echo, m/s live input, m/s synth)

- Aux Input (l/r or s from the Patch Point)

- Source Interleave

- Aux Interleave

- Centered or Panned Source

- Send Pan Follows Track Pan

- Grouped or Centered Aux Pan

- Mono/Stereo FX on the source track

- Mono/Stereo FX on the Aux track

- 0dB or Non-Zero Center Pan Law 

 

You made it complicated for yourself. So i'll just say this: No one spoke of panning, but you. I just followed the discussion. This thread is about send inputs - PERIOD. 

But I hear you. I just happened to be working in a physical analogue world and running the same inputs and inserts as what i usually do in the DAW sound different. A lot was exposed. Tried these in another DAW and it was pleasing. Came to cakewalk and with that analogue mind i had noticed a few things CbB does not handle as I thought it had. 

Then there's the Null issue . . . well the video I had attached don't lie. Literally with just my home PC in my "study/home-office" and old Interface connected to it and 4 inch monitors. No other gear connected. In the studio I run Mac so, I don't use CbB there anymore. I'll just come sit here and come up with | and | to write new demo songs. I still love creating magic with CbB and to dive a little deeper in its core. That being said: You start to notice little things different working in other environments. With some DAWS closely mimicking analogue workflows and others hybrid leaving some strictly digital. So understanding the routing of multiple environments - like I've mentioned just now - helps with creativity in multiple routing scenarios in all genres.

Like you've mentioned: understanding Pan Law and Pan Rules.   

Edited August 28, 2022 by Will.

[Glenn Stanton]

if i flip mono-stereo setting on either the main or aux, there is no change in terms of polarity null testing. the patch point is stereo at all times and doesn't have any processing on it. so if i set the main to mono (+3db from a stereo source file) it just transfers through the PP.  selecting a L-R-S from the PP is effectively the same because the source is mono. setting aux to mono, main to stereo, same dealio - the PP is stereo, doesn't care, and there is no summing, so no changes. 

=   ->  =  ->  -

=   ->  =  ->  =

m       pp       a

-  ->  =  ->  =

-  ->  =  ->  -

only time i get not-null is panning which does shift the relationship (hence the reason i originally mentioned panning)

[Will.]

18 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

if i flip mono-stereo setting on either the main or aux, there is no change in terms of polarity null testing. the patch point is stereo at all times and doesn't have any processing on it. so if i set the main to mono (+3db from a stereo source file) it just transfers through the PP.  selecting a L-R-S from the PP is effectively the same because the source is mono. setting aux to mono, main to stereo, same dealio - the PP is stereo, doesn't care, and there is no summing, so no changes. 

=   ->  =  ->  -

=   ->  =  ->  =

m       pp       a

-  ->  =  ->  =

-  ->  =  ->  -

only time i get not-null is panning which does shift the relationship (hence the reason i originally mentioned panning)

You're not with us. Doesnt matter though - I have found out what I needed to know reading 3 other DAWs (including Cakewalks) documentations on the original subject of this thread. 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Will.

[Colin Nicholls]

There's several lessons on this thread for all of us. Useful stuff.

[Will.]

57 minutes ago, Colin Nicholls said:

There's several lessons on this thread for all of us. Useful stuff.

Glad it's helpful. ☺