Been asking and questioned this forever.

[Will.]

Why doesn't the gain knobs move all the way down when set to different dB levels when you hold down Ctrl+Drag down - like how the volume sliders do when you want to reset the faders to zero with quick grouping? You often want to reset a few gain knobs with a quick CTRL+Dragging down and double click to reset them back to zero, but they never do with quick group. Instead they add the difference in +dB when you hold down Ctrl and do a double click. This shortcut works great with the volume sliders, but its as if it is broken with the gain knobs.

Don't involve mix recall please. Leave her alone! ?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Will.

[Glenn Stanton]

it would be nice to have a number of knobs act the same, it is very disappointing to double-click expecting the dial / knob / slider to reset to its default position (0 etc) and then it doesn't... even the PC EQ works like this... so resetting gain by double-clicking would be a nice enhancement which might not require significant work to make it happen.

[David Baay]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it's working here on both Gain knobs in the Inspector and Console and sliders in the track and with or without holding Ctrl to quick-group.

[Glenn Stanton]

individually, but if you group and double-click only the one track goes the zero and the rest are proportional. ideally they should all zero...

[Will.]

6 hours ago, David Baay said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it's working here on both Gain knobs in the Inspector and Console and sliders in the track and with or without holding Ctrl to quick-group.

Apologies for that dreadful typos - i fixed it. 

No, currently it has always just worked for the faders. To test this: Create three tracks or more - set each gain to a different dB level. Highlight the tracks>hold down Ctrl and drag the gain knobs all the way down. You will see when you reach -18dB the others does not follow all the way to -18dB and when you do a reset they add the difference in +dB. 

 

If you do this with the Sliders/Faders - you will see that it works great. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Will.

[David Baay]

48 minutes ago, Will. said:

You will see when you reach -18dB the others rest does not follow all the way to -18dB and when you do a reset they add the difference in +dB. 

Okay, I see that quick grouping uses what 'normal' grouping calls Absolute control for Gain - where the fixed offset between them is maintained- while 'Relative' control is used for Volume where everything moves proportionally relative to -INF. 

The different default behaviors  may or may not be intentional - I can see justfications for both. But if you use regular/persistent control grouping, you can get the Relative behavior on Gains.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by David Baay

[sjoens]

They all behave the same for me. Double clicking a knob only resets that knob.

Double clicking (resetting) one of the grouped knobs brings it to -0- but the others to a relative position based on their original relative position.

In each case only the knob that's being moved with the mouse has full range and will return to -0- when double clicked.

The other knobs being moved in unison will stop when the one at the highest/lowest range reaches it's limit.

IOW, If one of the knobs is already at it's farthest limit, only the knob being moved with the mouse will move in that direction. The others are locked together.

Edited August 17, 2022 by sjoens

[Will.]

34 minutes ago, sjoens said:

They all behave the same for me. Double clicking a knob only resets that knob.

Double clicking (resetting) one of the grouped knobs brings it to -0- but the others to a relative position based on their original relative position.

In each case only the knob that's being moved with the mouse has full range and will return to -0- when double clicked.

The other knobs being moved in unison will stop when the one at the highest/lowest range reaches it's limit.

IOW, If one of the knobs is already at it's farthest limit, only the knob being moved with the mouse will move in that direction. The others are locked together.

You're not on the same page.  Do this with the faders . . . 

1: Set them at different volumes.

2: Highlight them all.

3: Hold download Ctrl and drag down. 

All of them should be at the floor. 

The gain knobs right on top of the strips does not follow these commands.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Will.

[sjoens]

Are you using the latest update? I'm still on the previous one.

7 hours ago, Will. said:

3: Hold download Ctrl and drag down. 

All of them should be at the floor. 

In my CbB this doesn't happen no matter what I do. If I drag any knob the others will stop when the lowest set knob reaches the bottom. I cannot reproduce what you experience here. 

Interestingly I don't see Input Gain in the Quick Group Documentation.

FWIW, I find discrepancies with the Documentation.

It says: Quick Groups only affect tracks of the same type (Audio or MIDI).

- Not here. ANY track that's selected is affected. I can select both types in one group.

It says: To adjust the same control in all tracks. Hold down the CTRL key and adjust a control in a track that is not selected. Cakewalk automatically adjusts the same control in all other tracks.

- Not here. It has no affect on other tracks.

So unless they changed it's behavior without updating the docs, it's definitely out of whack.

Edited August 18, 2022 by sjoens

[sjoens]

Control Groups behave much the same but use Ctrl key to isolate one from the rest of the group.

Edited August 18, 2022 by sjoens

[Will.]

1 hour ago, sjoens said:

In my CbB this doesn't happen no matter what I do. If I drag any knob the others will stop when the lowest set knob reaches the bottom. 

Yes! I'm talking about that. 

1 hour ago, sjoens said:

 it's definitely out of whack.

Exactly.

To further show how broken quick group are on certain features - pan one track 50L and the other 50R now highlight the two tracks and try to move them to 60% you drag down, but something else happens.  

1 hour ago, sjoens said:

.FWIW, I find discrepancies with the Documentation.

? Definitely with this feature. 

Anyway . . . 

I hope this gets fixed. I have been reporting this for years. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Will.

[Will.]

1 hour ago, sjoens said:

Control Groups behave much the same but use Ctrl key to isolate one from the rest of the group.

Yes, the keyword here reads "Groups." So, that means the tracks that you have "Grouped" | or | have highlighted for "Quick Group" by holding down the Ctrl button - to isolate them from the rest of the tracks in the project. 

[sjoens]

In Quick Groups you select certain tracks and control only them using the Ctrl key. The Ctrl key works to put the selected tracks into a "group".

In Control Groups you don't select any tracks, but put individual track controls like Volume into a group by right-clicking the knob and picking a group (A-X). 

In this case the Ctrl key is used to isolate one of the grouped knobs so you can adjust it independently of the others in the same group.

[Will.]

21 minutes ago, sjoens said:

In Control Groups you don't select any tracks, but put individual track controls like Volume into a group by right-clicking the knob and picking a group (A-X). 

So you select them, right? ? You SELECT the tracks you want to "GROUP" (the keyword) not so? 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Will.

[David Baay]

To 'Select' a track means to left-click the track number to highlight it. Right-clicking a control and adding it to a group does is not technically 'Selecting' anything.

Regarding what happens when you use Ctrl with no track selected. I do believe this behavior was deliberately eliminated and the documentation did not keep up.  I'd have to search some old threads and release notes to find it.

EDIT: Here's a  thread from the old forum that discusses how dangerous it could be if you weren't aware of the feature. So it did work as documented at one time. This may have been the trigger for it going away:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Quick-Groups-Something-to-know-only-if-you-RTFM-m3651329.aspx

Edited August 18, 2022 by David Baay

[sjoens]

Thank DB. Has it really been 5-ish years since the change? I keep hearing "Read the manual!" But if it's not updated, what good is it?!?

Doc updates should be an integral part of the feature updates, not an after thought, or no thought at all.

[David Baay]

1 minute ago, sjoens said:

Thank DB. Has it really been 5-ish years since the change? I keep hearing "Read the manual!" But if it's not updated, what good is it?!?

Doc updates should be an integral part of the feature updates, not an after thought, or no thought at all.

S#!+ happens . The team is tiny now; stuff is gonna get by once in a while. The Ref. Guide is highly reliable and useful in general. 

[Will.]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Quick-Groups-Something-to-know-only-if-you-RTFM-m3651329.aspx

This sounded like a bug. Quick Group should work only for the selected tracks that are highlighted and in FOCUS. Thats the whole point of it. None of my other two DAWs works as described in the old forum OR the way CbB handles it now. 

Dont know how they can tell other tracks are not in focus OR when L&R pan knobs are moved down to counter rotate the percentage in the stereo fields. So i believe this part of CbB has been left untouched and broken including the gain knobs. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Will.

[David Baay]

The thread I referenced was from September 2017. The last release of SONAR was 17.10, and I just confirmed it worked per the documentation - controls in all unselected tracks of the same type can be quick grouped by holding Ctrl when no tracks are selected.  So it changed sometime after Bandlab picked it up.

This was not a bug. It was intended behavior to make whole-project changes easy without having to select everything - like assigning all MIDI track outputs to the same mutlitimbral synth instance. But any time you have a function that can make a lot of changes with one simple gesture, you run the risk of users unintentionally messing up their projects, and this was one that they dcided to back out for that reason.

[Will.]

2 minutes ago, David Baay said:

The thread I referenced was from September 2017. The last release of SONAR was 17.10, and I just confirmed it worked per the documentation - controls in all unselected tracks of the same type can be quick grouped by holding Ctrl when no tracks are selected.  So it changed sometime after Bandlab picked it up.

This was not a bug. It was intended behavior to make whole-project changes easy without having to select everything - like assigning all MIDI track outputs to the same mutlitimbral synth instance. But any time you have a function that can make a lot of changes with one simple gesture, you run the risk of users unintentionally messing up their projects, and this was one that they dcided to back out for that reason.

I think you're misunderstanding the whole thread discussion. 

Like I've said above. The values of the GAIN KNOBS WHEN MOVING WITH QUICK GROUP DOES NOT FOLLOW THE COMMANDS AS IT SHOULD IN dB IN CONJUCTION WITH THE OTHER TRACKS. 

QUICK GROUP WORKS AS IT IS SUPPOSE TO. NO ONE IS QUESTIONING THAT, BUT ITS COMMANDS AND VALUES WITHIN THE PROCESS. 

 

[David Baay]

Yes , I understand; no need to shout. Sjoens side-tracked the thread with mentions of Ref. Guide inaccuracy and using quick groupsing without selecting tracks so I took some time to address that as did you.

My disagreement is with your use of 'SHOULD'.  As menioned, regular Control Groups can work either way. Volume works the way you want Gain to work. But the way Gain works is not 'wrong' per se, it's just using the other convention. And to my mind it makes sense that Gains would maintain their levels relative to each other rather than relative to the arbitrary minimum of -18dB.  If Gain went all the way to -INF like volume, it might make more sense for them to move relative to that point.

Edited August 18, 2022 by David Baay