Sonar 8.5 Producer: Cakewalk TTS1 Audio Suddenly Disappears

[Annabelle]

For some reason, when I go to play a MIDI file with Cakewalk TTS1, after a few minutes, sometimes after a few seconds, the audio seems to disappear. In other words, I turn it back on with the Play button (Spacebar), and what seems to have happened is the audio is barely audible. This only seems to happen with Cakewalk TTS1. Is there a way to fix this? If so, what shall I do?

[Max Arwood]

The first suggestion would be to download a newer version of cakewalk. The version you are using is 13 years old. 2009
 

2022 version free ->

https://www.bandlab.com/#download
 

It could be several things. ->
You might have your latency set too low. 
Wrong ASIO drivers 
Too many plugins/virtual instruments

 

There are several volume controls on a virtual instrument like TTS1. There is a volume slider on the audio track.  There is a gain slider on the audio track.  There are per chanel volumes inside TTS1 and I think there is a master volume on it as well. 
 

You also have two more volume controls on the midi track volume and velocity. 

There’s is also a bus volume and a sound card volume. 
 

I hope this helps. 
 

[Annabelle]

1 hour ago, Max Arwood said:

The first suggestion would be to download a newer version of cakewalk. The version you are using is 13 years old. 2009
 

2022 version free ->

https://www.bandlab.com/#download
 

It could be several things. ->
You might have your latency set too low. 
Wrong ASIO drivers 
Too many plugins/virtual instruments

 

There are several volume controls on a virtual instrument like TTS1. There is a volume slider on the audio track.  There is a gain slider on the audio track.  There are per chanel volumes inside TTS1 and I think there is a master volume on it as well. 
 

You also have two more volume controls on the midi track volume and velocity. 

There’s is also a bus volume and a sound card volume. 
 

I hope this helps. 
 

The problem is:

1. I have an older machine, that's why I use Sonar 8.5.

2. I have accessibility software (Caketalking 8.8), which is only compatible with Sonar 8.5.

3. I use Windows 7 without updates on this machine (I know you might say that's a security risk, but it works just fine for me!). Any updates causes instability with the drivers and breaks compatibility with my JAWS (Job Access With Speech) screenreader software and other accessibility programs.

4. The Asio drivers I'm using are the USB Asio drivers for the Focusrite Third Generation Scarlet 18I20, which I know are the right drivers.

5. The buffer size is 512, which is the lowest latency my machine can comfortably withstand (Anything lower leads to stuttering and dropouts).

[Lord Tim]

TTS-1 is great but it's problematic, and is a cause of crashes for some people these days (it regularly crashes for me on an otherwise rock solid system). I'd definitely advise looking for a more updated GM synth for a start.

I would start to suspect things sharing a channel as the first place I'd look.

For example, if you have three tracks all going to TTS-1, and you have track 1 set to Piano with MIDI channel 1, track 2 set to Bass with MIDI channel 5, and track 3 is set to Strings and set to MIDI channel 1 (which is already being used by the Piano track) then lowering the Strings volume will give you all kinds of wacky results, usually affecting the wrong instrument.

Related to that, you might find there are some automation or controller information in a track that's adjusting things for you automatically - it's easy to draw that stuff in if you've had your Automation Write button accidentally activated on a track.

[bitflipper]

2 hours ago, Max Arwood said:

The first suggestion would be to download a newer version of cakewalk.

Normally this would be excellent advice, but Annabelle is stuck with 8.5 because she is visually challenged and apparently the accessibility software she uses is only compatible with 8.5.

Even if that wasn't the case, this issue is probably not the result of some old bug that's since been fixed.

Annabelle, does the problem persist if you reduce the project to just the TTS-1 and its associated MIDI tracks? If so, we'd be glad to examine your project and help identify the problem. You could upload the project file to DropBox, or if that's problematic zip it up and email it to me. I still have 8.5 installed here.

[Annabelle]

38 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

TTS-1 is great but it's problematic, and is a cause of crashes for some people these days (it regularly crashes for me on an otherwise rock solid system). I'd definitely advise looking for a more updated GM synth for a start.

I would start to suspect things sharing a channel as the first place I'd look.

For example, if you have three tracks all going to TTS-1, and you have track 1 set to Piano with MIDI channel 1, track 2 set to Bass with MIDI channel 5, and track 3 is set to Strings and set to MIDI channel 1 (which is already being used by the Piano track) then lowering the Strings volume will give you all kinds of wacky results, usually affecting the wrong instrument.

Related to that, you might find there are some automation or controller information in a track that's adjusting things for you automatically - it's easy to draw that stuff in if you've had your Automation Write button accidentally activated on a track.

Any good quality GM synths out there that would sound similar to the Roland Sound Canvas SC8850? I actually used the hardware version in a Music Technology course at Lane Community College here in Eugene, Oregon when I was a student there.

[Lord Tim]

53 minutes ago, Annabelle said:

Any good quality GM synths out there that would sound similar to the Roland Sound Canvas SC8850?

Roland Cloud has one which would likely fit the purpose: 

https://www.roland.com/au/products/rc_sound_canvas_va/

This actually has the exact SC8850 sound sets in there, in fact.

However, as great as all of the synths are in there, this is a subscription service rather than a one-time payment for a synth, so that might not be a good option.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Lord Tim

[msmcleod]

4 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Roland Cloud has one which would likely fit the purpose: 

https://www.roland.com/au/products/rc_sound_canvas_va/

This actually has the exact SC8850 sound sets in there, in fact.

However, as great as all of the synths are in there, this is a subscription service rather than a one-time payment for a synth, so that might not be a good option.

I think this is one of the ones you can buy outright... Thomann are selling it for £63  ( around $76 US )

  https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_cloud_sound_canvas_va.htm

 

[John Vere]

But my thinking on this is the problems we are now experiencing with the TTS-1 are due to it's slowly being made obsolete by updates to both Cakewalk and Windows OS. So to me it should be solid as a rock on 8.5 and W7? 

I have never personally had issues with it when I use it to open downloaded midi files. Only time I've had a crash is when I try and add it later on to a project. 

But I most certainly worked with it without issues and it is an amazing tool for working with GM midi files. 

The OP's issue does seem to be more related to something hidden causing a volume change. 

So always questions, right! 

First open console view and ( might need help with this) notice if any volume controls move when you hit the space bar. 

It would be good to know if the level change is a MIDI event or an Audio event. 

Also open the events list and look for any events that change volume like CC 7 or 11.  

 

[Annabelle]

13 minutes ago, Cactus Music said:

But my thinking on this is the problems we are now experiencing with the TTS-1 are due to it's slowly being made obsolete by updates to both Cakewalk and Windows OS. So to me it should be solid as a rock on 8.5 and W7? 

I have never personally had issues with it when I use it to open downloaded midi files. Only time I've had a crash is when I try and add it later on to a project. 

But I most certainly worked with it without issues and it is an amazing tool for working with GM midi files. 

The OP's issue does seem to be more related to something hidden causing a volume change. 

So always questions, right! 

First open console view and ( might need help with this) notice if any volume controls move when you hit the space bar. 

It would be good to know if the level change is a MIDI event or an Audio event. 

Also open the events list and look for any events that change volume like CC 7 or 11.  

 

The only controllers in the file, a MIDI file, are 121, set to 0, and 64, set to 0. These appear at the very beginning of the file, before you find any music notes.

[John Vere]

Well 64 is sustain and set to off so that' is OK, The 121 set to Zero is All Controllers Off so that is also OK. 

I guess another experiment would be to insert other vst instruments to replace the TTS-1 and see if the issue remains.  

I know this also might be hard for you do easily,  but if you Open the TTS-1 properties or Graphic User Interface can you tell if the main output is all the way up? And if you click on a pre view button does it make sound? 

The other thing to be aware of is other VST instruments that have Midi output enabled looping back and causing issues if a midi track has it's input set to None and Omni. At least I think it's None. So if you make sure no other VST's in the project have Midi output enabled and change the midi tracks input to your keyboard controller this would rule that out. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Cactus Music

[Annabelle]

1 hour ago, Cactus Music said:

Well 64 is sustain and set to off so that' is OK, The 121 set to Zero is All Controllers Off so that is also OK. 

I guess another experiment would be to insert other vst instruments to replace the TTS-1 and see if the issue remains.  

I know this also might be hard for you do easily,  but if you Open the TTS-1 properties or Graphic User Interface can you tell if the main output is all the way up? And if you click on a pre view button does it make sound? 

The other thing to be aware of is other VST instruments that have Midi output enabled looping back and causing issues if a midi track has it's input set to None and Omni. At least I think it's None. So if you make sure no other VST's in the project have Midi output enabled and change the midi tracks input to your keyboard controller this would rule that out. 

I would put more VST's in there. However, the drive that has the samples associated with those VST's is currently out of order and I need to send it to Drivesavers, as it shorted out when my apartment complex lost power on May 27, 2022. Here, I'll attach an example of the sound it makes when I try to power it on. I recorded this with my Olympus LS100 next to the computer, and powered on from a shutdown state. The drive makes this sound like a ticking clock at the cadence of a North American busy signal, before finally shutting off after 10 cycles of that.

Hard Drive Flash On and Off Then Shut Off.zip

[bitflipper]

Oh man, I know that sound. The good news is that there is a very good chance your data is (mostly) recoverable. That clicking noise is the drive performing RTZs (return to zero), a last-resort action it takes when it can't figure out where it is on the disk. If you're lucky it's a mechanical failure and the platters themselves are still OK.

(If you're extremely unlucky, the heads have literally crashed into the drive surfaces and been dragged across the magnetic coating, leaving gouges on every track.  In which case some of the data might still be recoverable, but it'll be an expensive operation. Expensive enough to justify the cost of an uninterruptible power supply to avoid such disasters in the future. )

[Max Arwood]

Don’t know if you figured it out or not. One other thing I thought of is to set you latency higher. Try 1024 and 2048 to see if this helps. 
 

Does the audio volume go down or does the computer stop playing  

Let us know what you have tried. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Max Arwood
Clarity

[Annabelle]

43 minutes ago, Max Arwood said:

Don’t know if you figured it out or not. One other thing I thought of is to set you latency higher. Try 1024 and 2048 to see if this helps. 
 

Does the audio volume go down or does the computer stop playing  

Let us know what you have tried. 

The audio volume goes down to something barely audible. As for the data recovery, I'm sending the drive in to Drive Savers in Novato, California. The good news is, my Renter's Insurance policy with State Farm is going to cover the cost, so all I have to pay is the deductable ($500), which will be paid to my insurance company.

[Max Arwood]

If the volume goes down and the software does not stop - it is a volume /  velocity problem. It could even be the actual midi velocity could have been dropped at that point. Post it on google drive, box or drop box. And we could research this better. 

[Annabelle]

On 8/15/2022 at 4:49 PM, Max Arwood said:

If the volume goes down and the software does not stop - it is a volume /  velocity problem. It could even be the actual midi velocity could have been dropped at that point. Post it on google drive, box or drop box. And we could research this better. 

I know it's not that, because there are no volume automation controllers in the MIDI. I restart Sonar, then the sound is heard again, but then suddenly turns back to being inaudible out of the blue.

[Lord Tim]

Could there be a faulty MIDI controller (eg: a USB MDI keyboard) transmitting volume changes to your synth?  I know on my cheap UMX61 it has days where it sends heaps of random controller information by itself... thankfully not anything that interferes with anything I use, but I do have to go in and remove it later if it happens during recording.

[Annabelle]

4 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Could there be a faulty MIDI controller (eg: a USB MDI keyboard) transmitting volume changes to your synth?  I know on my cheap UMX61 it has days where it sends heaps of random controller information by itself... thankfully not anything that interferes with anything I use, but I do have to go in and remove it later if it happens during recording.

The keyboard I have is an Akai MPK25. I don't think it's faulty, because it works with other instruments. Here's an example project with Cakewalk TTS1.

There's Always Tomorrow.cwp

[Lord Tim]

35 minutes ago, Annabelle said:

The keyboard I have is an Akai MPK25. I don't think it's faulty, because it works with other instruments. Here's an example project with Cakewalk TTS1.

There's Always Tomorrow.cwp 648.68 kB · 1 download

Just looking at this now.

The first thing I noticed was TTS-1 crashed. ? But after that it opened and I got no sound. Dim Solo was enabled for the project but that didn't affect anything. When I opened up the TTS-1 GUI, I noticed the master output was set to 0. So that's likely why this had gone silent. Now let's find out why it's doing that.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Lord Tim