Trouble at 2C Audio

[PavlovsCat]

11 hours ago, cclarry said:

Actually, yes they can be in breach.  If Denis is the copyright holder, and 2C Audio has "pushed him out" then there would be a major
issue for 2C Audio continuing to sell the product.  Just because 2C Audio is still selling the product doesn't mean that they are doing
so legally.  I guess the question is WHY 2C Audio stopped giving Denis his royalties in the first place, which itself would seem to be a
breach of, at the bare minimum, ethics, if not his Contract, and Copyright Law.  So if Denis holds the copyright, or even if his NAME
appears the copyright, then 2C Audio would be in breach of that copyright in selling the product.

I know of another developer doing something very similar several years ago. It's a real shame how greed, selfishness and poor ethics destroy some people and businesses. 

[Hidden Symmetry]

16 hours ago, antler said:

Surely you mean you haven't missed it Aether... (sorry - bad joke)

Too bad. I was thinking of maybe picking something up from them at around Black Friday this year; I might reconsider. I remember a similar thing happened with Sample Modelling - they had an internal dispute during which the SWAM instrument line was unavailable for purchase. They eventually separated into two companies: Sample Modelling for the Kontakt libraries, and Audio Modelling for the SWAM instruments.

lol, they are nice reverbs but after reading a few of those posts I wouldn't invest any money in them..they shot themselves in the foot by posting in public..

I was hoping for a vst3 to install Aether again but it doesn't look like that will be happening anytime soon (or any new updates ftm).  I hope their issues can be worked out but it appears there will always be bad blood between them..it's unfortunate...

[antler]

6 hours ago, Hidden Symmetry said:

they are nice reverbs but after reading a few of those posts I wouldn't invest any money in them..

yeah... shame though - I've read good things about them and they were one of the companies that didn't go the iLok route. I probably have enough reverbs anyway, though I might pick up a few Valhalla ones if I get reverb-GAS

[antler]

19 hours ago, James Foxall said:

A lot of developers believe there is an automatic copyright on published code but it doesn't work that way (I found that out the hard way)

I think it depends on where you live. Authors get automatic copyright in countries that signed up to the Berne convention. As I understand, the US has done so relatively recently and may still require copyright registration - I don't live there though, so could be wrong on that one.

[Reid Rosefelt]

22 hours ago, Fleer said:

But most importantly, you are rightfully proud of an amazing film that wouldn’t have existed without you. Knowing that is rewarding, much more than money. 

No, Ang Lee and James Schamus and a lot of other people made the movie. ?Michelle Yeoh, Chow Yun-Fat, Zhang Ziyi, Yuen Woo-Ping, etc.  My staff and I just publicized it.  And of course it was Sony Classics' film. 

On the positive side,  I made a movie about the experience starring a rubber frog named Tiger.  If not for my company going down on that film, there would be no Tiger the Frog. ?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0420252/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

I'll make a YouTube video on it at some point explaining the whole sad story. 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Reid Rosefelt

[Jesse Screed]

22 minutes ago, Reid Rosefelt said:

going down on that film, there would be no Tiger the Frog. ?

never before was there a clarion portent of the Apocalypse

 

21 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

greed, selfishness and poor ethics destroy most people

fixed it for you

We all know this going in

Planning to get out is the key

More important than the staged Grand Entrance,

is leaving the table with all the chips; metaphorically speaking of course.

Often times one may lose by winning.

[Fleer]

1 hour ago, Reid Rosefelt said:

No, Ang Lee and James Schamus and a lot of other people made the movie. ?Michelle Yeoh, Chow Yun-Fat, Zhang Ziyi, Yuen Woo-Ping, etc.  My staff and I just publicized it.  And of course it was Sony Classics' film. 

On the positive side,  I made a movie about the experience starring a rubber frog named Tiger.  If not for my company going down on that film, there would be no Tiger the Frog. ?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0420252/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

I'll make a YouTube video on it at some point explaining the whole sad story. 

 

Clicked the imdb link. Read the review. Now I really want to watch the film. 

[czyky]

CTHD is a great movie and Aether, Breeze, and especially B2 are great spatial plugins. A bit (small bit? big bit? eight bit?) of bad faith lurks behind the facade of each.

If I didn't already own licenses to the 2caudio products, knowing what I now know, would I consider getting them now?

If I hadn't already watched Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon (twice), knowing what I now know, would I consider watching it now?

Reid, if (when) you make the video, I will watch it.

2C audio, if you put out a new product, I will buy it.

[Tapsa Kuusniemi]

This is a real shame as their products are great. But as the situation is I would not believe either side. Only they know what their contracts say and this is the only thing that matters.

Personally I find it a tad bit odd that Denis should run into such a situation twice where he claims the other side is "evil". Once I can believe but the same thing happening to you again kinda feels like you are either editing things to make yourself look good or then the way you do things with your partners is at fault. Whether this is the case I don't know, but for me the fact that you use mailing list information to send customers such an email is a huge NO-NO. You just don't do that no matter what the case and he should know.

Whatever happened they should resolve it through mediators not public forums. "Whatever say may be used against you"... 

I do hope they get everything resolved as I like the products and Aether is a great and cheap reverb for outdoor spaces (which there are precious little alternatives to, all of them waaaay more expensive).

[Hidden Symmetry]

I just received this email this morning so I take it it's not resolved. Feels like I'm in the middle of a divorce dispute with a couple that i don't know.

Since it wasn't sent from 2CAudio directly someone else not knowing the back story might think it's a bit 'phishy'..

[Denis Malygin]

Hello guys,

I came across this forum thread just today so I appologize for not being able to post here at the time of active discussion.
I'm open and ready to answer any questions concerning 2CAudio.

some notes:

1) I do have customers purchase records (though without emails) in a form of sales/accounting reports which also state my profit share and

which has been for years the basis to calculate the amount due to me.

Before march 2020 we had no formal agreement with Andrew. By US law having such reports constitutes having a joint business (because we shared protits and losses)

2) 2CAUDIO LLC was formally registered only in march 2020. if you purchased before that you legally purchased from DesignerSound or long-ago Galbalum (an exclusive distributor of 2CAudio products). 2CAUDIO did not formally exist before march 2020.

3) the brandname 2CAUDIO was invented by me. I have the corresponding emails back from 2005

4) I developed SpaceVerb (aka Aether) and all the plug-in code infrastructure prior to 2CAudio and that was my initial contribution. Mr. Souter did contribute virtually nothing at the start, though later he could balance that out and by 2020 both partied contributed equally I deem.

5) In december 2021 I sent an invoice to Mr. Souter according to the november sales report he sent to me. This invoice was never paid. So Mr. Souter is collecting all the money from sales and puts in his pockets for a year now. I'm wondering if he used this extra money to make updates to plug-ins that many users had been awaiting for years. in his single public exposure at kvr forum in march 2022 he promised he would support and develop products further (I have no idea how this is possible though as 95% of the code is developed by me, extremely complex code btw that I invested 17 years of my life into).  It's been 7 months. The the only thing he's been doing is hiding all this information about the situation and trying to collect as much money as he could. He did not publish any info that he kicked out the major contributor and the author of 95% of the code out of the company. He could be dishonest with me but at least he must be honest with customers if he really wants to collect money under 2C brand.  customers invested good amount of their money into 2C plug-ins and have a vested right to know about the situation and whether or not the plug-ins will be supported/updated. If he to grab all 2C assets he should at least say to customers: Denis got kicked out, I arrested all his personal money and would have double income from sales. This would allow me to hire a developer and we would make updates and further support the products. aside Denis this would be fair to customers.

In jan/feb 2022 having no money from sales I was actively working on M1 support. it was 50% done and if anything the M1 support would have been available later this spring already. Mr. Souter having doble amount of money could have not made these much anticipated updates so far. And you guys blame me here in this forum? for what? maybe you think I'm an *russian untermesch*  thus has no right to raise my voice and Mr. Souter is right just became he is an ubermensch because he is american? guys have a look at what this ubermensch is actually doing! 2C users, do you really think Mr. Souter is fair and honest with you?

Now the situation seems like Mr. Souter has no intention to update/support the products further. I might be wrong of course. 

Unlike Mr. Souter I respect other people's property rights and I cannot release updates by my own even though I can do them.

6) Anyone who is going to purchase anything from Mr. Souter must be aware that on May 9th 2022 my attorney sent a Cease&Desist letter to Mr. Souter in which we demanded to stop infringing my copyrights by distributing and comercialization of software products that are based on my intellectual property.  Sooner or later I would be able to sue Mr. Souter for that.

7) there are many public evidences that I'm the major contributor to 2CAudio. Even the web states that. And if you own any 2C plug-in you could see on info page:

Denis Malygin

Andrew Souter

Regards,
Denis, 2CAudio Initiator, Co-Founder and the Lead Developer

[Last Call]

14 minutes ago, Denis Malygin said:

Hello guys,

....
Denis, 2CAudio Initiator, Co-Founder and the Lead Developer

Create/found a new plugin brand (3CAudio?) , get famous again (I feel you can make them again, and they would have again great quality since you are the coder), sell like pancakes, burn him to the ground.

Cheers.

[ZokZTM]

2 hours ago, Denis Malygin said:

Hello guys,

I came across this forum thread just today so I appologize for not being able to post here at the time of active discussion.

Hi Denis,

Welcome here! I'm sure comments here are nothing to do with you being Russian... there are millions of great Russian peole and millions of bad business practices and scammers all around the globe any colour and any nationality! 

Right is right and wrong is wrong! I'm for one super happy that you have expressed here your sincere feelings and facts. 

I'll second @Last Call and suggest reuse the code , make it better, new software, move on and cash in on your intellectual property!

Stay well and don't despare... in cycle of life tables do turn... if you push them hard enough!

[antler]

3 hours ago, Denis Malygin said:

6) Anyone who is going to purchase anything from Mr. Souter must be aware that on May 9th 2022 my attorney sent a Cease&Desist letter to Mr. Souter in which we demanded to stop infringing my copyrights by distributing and comercialization of software products that are based on my intellectual property.  Sooner or later I would be able to sue Mr. Souter for that.

Hi Denis

Thanks for the update

Am I right in understanding that 2CAudio is effectively dead as it is now? You mentioned that you suspect the listed products to get no further updates, and that they may eventually get taken down as a result of legal action?

[Denis Malygin]

Hello Guys,

Thanks for the support and warm words.

regarding product support/updates.

1) I have no idea if Mr. Souter would support/develop products further.

 you can send an inquiry to his address: andrew@2caudio.com or info@2caudio.com

2) I even dont know if he replies to user emails sent to info/support and what he tells them.

3) By my side I will continue to spread information about situation and about the fact

that Mr. Souter ignores US Laws by distributing/commercializing software products

made from code which he has no ownership of and having no proper license agreement

with the code owner.

4) I will sue Mr. Souter as soon as I collect enough money. Soon the amount of the money

who owes me will match the attorney and court fees combined and the affair will become justified

5) If users really want that 2C products are further supported they should do some actions.

they should gather together and make an official request to Mr. Souter whether or not he is going to

provide support and develop products further and specify a specific date by which the updates

become available. If he is not going to update/support products or fails to deliver updates it would

then make sense to assign all 2CA assets to me. I can a full capacity to support and develop products further

since I'm the author of 90% of the whole codebase. The only thing I that I have no expertise in is some math stuff

in Breeze2 reverb that Andrew spent years researching, but I can replace that block with the math that I do understand

without significant change to the sounding of the reverb.

6. Mr. Souter enjoyed 2X income for 1 years already as I did not receive payments from october'2021.

This amount of money is more than enough to hire a developer and bring the updates.

But what we see is Mr. Souter collecting money futher.  

6) Mr. Souter withdraws from any public exposure since march 2021. This implies that he does not care about worried users

who provided him an opportunity to enjoy doing R&D in audio and provided source of income to him and his family over past 15 years.

He was kind and nice to users when everything was fine and he benefited from talking to them but when things turned hard 

that mask of a nice man evaporated he showed his true nature, true attitude to customers.

and he does not care about potential customers by hiding information about the situation. Everybody knows how such activity is called.

Regards,
Denis, 2CAudio Initiator, Co-Founder and the Lead Developer

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Denis Malygin