Closing Cakewalk Causes Kernal Corruption

[Jerry Gerber]

When I close CW sometimes it doesn't leave memory.  If I turn off my MIDI interface I get the BSOD, a kernel level corruption occurs.  I've updated my graphics driver and don't know what is causing this.   Any suggestions?  If I close a file and wait 5 minutes and then close CW, it works without issue.

Thanks,

Jerry

[Lord Tim]

It sounds like it's trying to unload a large synth library or something like that, and not releasing properly until it does (any Baker, feel free to come in and tell me to sit down and be quiet if I'm way off base here!)

Try opening up Resource Monitor and have it filter for Cakewalk.exe and see what it does when you exit - that should give you an idea of what's still happening there. A better tool is probably Process Monitor, but it's a bit more complex too. This should at least narrow the reason down a bit to see if anything can be done about it.

[Jerry Gerber]

4 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

It sounds like it's trying to unload a large synth library or something like that, and not releasing properly until it does (any Baker, feel free to come in and tell me to sit down and be quiet if I'm way off base here!)

Try opening up Resource Monitor and have it filter for Cakewalk.exe and see what it does when you exit - that should give you an idea of what's still happening there. A better tool is probably Process Monitor, but it's a bit more complex too. This should at least narrow the reason down a bit to see if anything can be done about it.

Thanks!  I hope the Resource Monitor will give me a bit more information as to what's going on.  If I wait a few minutes after closing a file before closing CW, I don't have this issue, so something must be slow to leave memory..

 

[bvideo]

Might as well list your midi h/w interface and its driver version here and your OS version, since it's fairly likely the midi driver relates to both the hang and the crash.

[Jerry Gerber]

1 hour ago, bvideo said:

Might as well list your midi h/w interface and its driver version here and your OS version, since it's fairly likely the midi driver relates to both the hang and the crash.

Good idea.  I'm running CW on an i7 Windows 10 machine with 32 GB RAM, 2 SSD drives and with a MOTU 1248 audio interface and a MOTU MicroLite MIDI interface.  The MIDI interface is definitely the culprit because if I turn it off after closing CW it often causes the BSOD and the kernal corruption message. 

Both the audio and MIDI drivers are fully up-to-date and the latest that MOTU has posted on their website.  I also updated the NVIDIA video driver but I don't think that's related to this problem.

If I close a CW file and wait 3 or 4 minutes before closing CW, the issue doesn't happen.

Thanks,

Jerry

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Jerry Gerber

[noynekker]

Jerry . . . do you have a startup template for every project that has some things preloaded ?  . . . ie. what happens if you start a brand new blank project, from the Normal template, type in a few midi notes, and close Cakewalk right away, does it still do it ?

You could also do the same test, and record a bit of audio. (if you even use audio) Just to narrow down the causes. Or, does this only happen on your larger projects ?

[Jerry Gerber]

6 minutes ago, noynekker said:

Jerry . . . do you have a startup template for every project that has some things preloaded ?  . . . ie. what happens if you start a brand new blank project, from the Normal template, type in a few midi notes, and close Cakewalk right away, does it still do it ?

You could also do the same test, and record a bit of audio. (if you even use audio) Just to narrow down the causes. Or, does this only happen on your larger projects ?

Hey Noynekker,

It seems to happen on every project.  I have numerous startup templates, not sure if any of those wouldn't have this issue.  I'll try what you suggest, opening the default normal template, type in a few midi notes and close CW right away.

Thanks,

J

 

[Jerry Gerber]

The only solution I have found that always works is to simply wait a few minutes after closing a file to close Cakewalk.  When I do this, Cakewalk leaves memory as expected and I can shut down the computer.  I am about 80% sure it has to do with the MIDI interface but other than continue to keep drivers updated, as I always do, I don't know what else to try..

Thanks!

Jerry

[Lord Tim]

How'd you go with Resource Monitor or Process Monitor? Any clues?

[Jerry Gerber]

6 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

How'd you go with Resource Monitor or Process Monitor? Any clues?

Not really.   I am pretty sure the MIDI interface is involved in this because if I shut it off before closing CW, either it hangs windows or it shuts down Cakewalk after I try booting CW from memory.  Since I am never sure what it will do if if shut down the MIDI interface first, I just wait a few minutes before closing CW and that does the trick.  I'd still like to know what's causing it, but composition is always the #1 priority and I've already spent too much time on this..

Thanks!

Jerry

Edited June 5, 2022 by Jerry Gerber

[bitflipper]

Those kinds of hangs are normally hardware or driver related.

It happens when a process is waiting for something to happen, e.g. waiting for the MIDI interface to reply "got it!". After awhile, if that thing doesn't happen within a reasonable amount of time, you get a timeout. That means that either the software has decided that the driver isn't going to respond or the driver has decided that the hardware isn't going to respond. Either way, it's actually a useful safety mechanism because it avoids the kind of hangs where the process (or even the whole system) becomes unresponsive and you have to reboot.

That doesn't necessarily mean your MIDI interface is at fault. You can get the same symptom from a weak spot on a conventional disk drive (this doesn't apply to your SSDs, though; it's just an example of how other hardware components can be at fault.) It could even be a faulty USB cable or USB port, assuming your interface is connected via USB (a long shot, though, since you don't seem to be having other USB-related problems such as dropped notes when recording MIDI).

Sorry this is vague. It's just that there are many potential suspects. First thing I'd do is see if there is any relationship between the hangs and what's going on in the project. Does it happen with an empty project, where you just open CW and then close it? If not, see if it happens with just non-Kontakt instruments, or with just audio and no MIDI tracks (just import an audio file from another project to test). Try with a normal project but close CW without playing it back first, then try again closing after a full playback. Try it with a fully-rendered project (you can just freeze everything) and see if it makes a difference whether VIs are loaded or not.

The idea is to look for any repeatable correlation, e.g. it hangs after I do this, but not if I do that. If there are no correlations to be found, start looking beyond Cakewalk. I'd test immediately after a Windows restart (not shutdown), and with/without first running other audio software. Some process unrelated to CW (but using shared resources) could be causing the problem. I assume you're not running antivirus software on your DAW, or if you do that you've whitelisted all folders having to do with audio work (sample libraries, plugins, the entire \program files\cakewalk tree).

[Jerry Gerber]

6 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Those kinds of hangs are normally hardware or driver related.

It happens when a process is waiting for something to happen, e.g. waiting for the MIDI interface to reply "got it!". After awhile, if that thing doesn't happen within a reasonable amount of time, you get a timeout. That means that either the software has decided that the driver isn't going to respond or the driver has decided that the hardware isn't going to respond. Either way, it's actually a useful safety mechanism because it avoids the kind of hangs where the process (or even the whole system) becomes unresponsive and you have to reboot.

That doesn't necessarily mean your MIDI interface is at fault. You can get the same symptom from a weak spot on a conventional disk drive (this doesn't apply to your SSDs, though; it's just an example of how other hardware components can be at fault.) It could even be a faulty USB cable or USB port, assuming your interface is connected via USB (a long shot, though, since you don't seem to be having other USB-related problems such as dropped notes when recording MIDI).

Sorry this is vague. It's just that there are many potential suspects. First thing I'd do is see if there is any relationship between the hangs and what's going on in the project. Does it happen with an empty project, where you just open CW and then close it? If not, see if it happens with just non-Kontakt instruments, or with just audio and no MIDI tracks (just import an audio file from another project to test). Try with a normal project but close CW without playing it back first, then try again closing after a full playback. Try it with a fully-rendered project (you can just freeze everything) and see if it makes a difference whether VIs are loaded or not.

The idea is to look for any repeatable correlation, e.g. it hangs after I do this, but not if I do that. If there are no correlations to be found, start looking beyond Cakewalk. I'd test immediately after a Windows restart (not shutdown), and with/without first running other audio software. Some process unrelated to CW (but using shared resources) could be causing the problem. I assume you're not running antivirus software on your DAW, or if you do that you've whitelisted all folders having to do with audio work (sample libraries, plugins, the entire \program files\cakewalk tree).

Hi Bitflipper,

I think you may have solved this for me.  I placed all 4 MOTU drivers (Audio, USB, MIDI and, I think a system driver) that reside in Windows/System32/Drivers) into the Windows Defender Anti-Virus Exclusion area (whitelisted), so they are now not being scanned or monitored. 

So far I haven't been able to get CW to stick in memory.   So, I am giving it a few days and I'll let you know for sure, but I think this has resolved the problem! I hope!

Best,

Jerry

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Jerry Gerber

[bitflipper]

Yay! Feels good, don't it?

[Jerry Gerber]

13 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Yay! Feels good, don't it?

Yep!  Now I am 99.9% certain that the issue has been resolved by excluding the 4 MOTU drivers in Windows/System32/Drivers from being scanned by Window's Defender.  Yay!   I wish I had known sooner.   I cannot get CW to hang after closing, wonderful!

Also, if anyone is having trouble opening the Theme option in Preferences/Themes (it takes a long time), do the same thing; exclude C:\Cakewalk Content (where themes are located)  from Windows Defender.  This resolves that issue as well.

Jerry

[sjoens]

Why not put the entire Windows/System32/Drivers folder there?

BTW, I've excluded every Cakewalk folder I can find. Even so, Key bindings is still slowing Prefs down upon opening.

Edited June 8, 2022 by sjoens

[Jerry Gerber]

5 hours ago, sjoens said:

Why not put the entire Windows/System32/Drivers folder there?

BTW, I've excluded every Cakewalk folder I can find. Even so, Key bindings is still slowing Prefs down upon opening.

Is there any particular reason to do that?   Yeah, I've excluded all CW folders as well. 

 

[sjoens]

4 hours ago, Jerry Gerber said:

Is there any particular reason to do that?

... to minimize typing entries. 

[Jerry Gerber]

Thanks Bitflipper for the successful solution to CW crashing upon closing.  I put the 4 MOTU audio and MIDI drivers in /windows/system32/drivers in the exclusion list of Windows Anti-Virus (Defender) and now I cannot get CW to crash.  Even if I close it with the file I saved without closing the file, it still won't crash.    Wonderful!!

Jerry