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Using Bandlab Sonar live?

pax-eterna

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pax-eterna

pax-eterna

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Has anyone been using Bandlabs version of Sonar in a live setting? If so, can you report on reliability issues, if any? I am thinking of using a laptop for gigs, and rather than create WAV/mp3 backing tracks I thought using Sonar might make it easier to make dynamic changes, run markers (for repeating sections - using MIDI files- when necessary) and other stuff. I am currently using Cantabile as a host app (not live yet) but it gives me no freedom to vary arrangements or mute out parts etc if I felt like it.

Thanks

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CJ Jacobson

CJ Jacobson

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Reliability doesn't have to do with the DAW (Sonar/Bandlab).

It has to do with these 4 things, for the most part:

  • Your sound card drivers (you need a good audio interface that has good drivers written for it
  • The way you set up your sound card driver settings (you need to experiment with driver settings to get the lowest latency and still have good performance.)
  • Your PC specs, your MOBO, processor speed and some others
  • The type of effects you may use. some have hidden buffers in them that make it impossible to use live
Edited by CJ Jacobson
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pax-eterna

pax-eterna

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Thanks.  I mainly use IK Multimedia Sampletank, Addictive Drums 2, Pianoteq 6 and Lounge Lizard 4. I am using the Yamaha Steinberg ASIO drivers, i5@3.2 8gig RAM and an SSD.

Reason I am asking is I have had several random crashes on the desktop (pretty much only with Sampletank - and IK deny it is anything to do with ST they keep telling me it is a Cakewalk issue!) however as these crashes require a full reboot, I am hesitant to use Sonar live....unless others can report a glitch free time on stage.

I am considering jumping to Ableton Live but I'd rather avoid the expense if I could.

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davet

davet

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I've been running Sonar/Bandlab for years in a band that uses sound effects. Works perfect. I've got two old HP laptops loaded with the same OS and 

Sonar/Bandlab versions. Laptops run Echo PCMCIA card audio interfaces, works every time.  If we use our PA I plug the Echo into a pair of mic/line inputs. If we're using a PA provided by the event I plug the echo card into a stereo DI. The sound guys take it from there.

The only downside is that the screens on the laptops get washed out in direct sunlight. Not bad if the stage is covered, but really a bitch to see otherwise.

I never use the on board audio on the PC's. 

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abacab

abacab

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You didn't mention what version of SampleTank you were using.

ST4 was a crashfest with just about any DAW upon release, but has improved with the v4.04 update. There has also been some discussion around here (and on the old forums at forum.cakewalk.com) from some users were having issues with Sonar and ST3, but some of those may have been a case of using VST2 vs. VST3. I don't recall which plugin version was the trouble maker, but a forum search should reveal the answer.

I also doubt that IK Multimedia tests extensively with Cakewalk, so not sure I would rely on their support saying not their problem.

You also did not mention what audio interface you are running. Since you mention the Yamaha Steinberg drivers, it seems you either may be running a Steinberg audio interface, or maybe just using their generic ASIO driver with your onboard PC audio chip. I will reiterate what was mentioned earlier by @CJ Jacobson   regarding the importance of drivers:

Quote

 

Your sound card drivers (you need a good audio interface that has good drivers written for it

 

As far as doing dynamic stuff live with the Cakewalk audio engine, you may be taking your chances, as it wasn't really designed with that in mind. Just playing backing tracks from a playlist should be fine, but you may get some audio engine dropouts if you push it too hard with making changes live.  Not a problem in the studio, but YMMV...

Ableton Live may be expensive, but there is a reason that it's popular for live use.

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Starship Krupa

Starship Krupa

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BandLab doesn't have a version of Sonar. Sonar was a program that used to  licensed for a fee by a company called Cakewalk. Now a company called BandLab licenses a program called Cakewalk for free. Confusing, I know. All you need to know is that that Cakewalk is a thing. Sonar is defunct. It is no more.

I have  run Sampletank 3 under Cakewalk by BandLab and it has crashed the host program in both  its VST2 and VST3 versions.

I would not recommend attempting to run the combination in a live performance situation.

 

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abacab

abacab

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You can buy Ableton Live Intro for $99. https://www.ableton.com/en/shop/live/

It is limited to 16 audio/MIDI tracks, but that may be enough for your situation by hosting your multiple virtual instruments live.

It is also limited in the number of bundled instruments & FX that are included, but you seem to be mostly interested in bringing your own anyway, so that is probably not a big deal.

Live  Intro is a small step up from the Live 10 Lite that is often bundled for free with some select hardware like audio interfaces and controllers. Live Lite is limited to 8 tracks.

You can download a free 30 day trial of the full Live Suite to test stability on your system.

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abacab

abacab

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1 hour ago, pax-eterna said:

Is Live particularly difficult to run?

Not really.  Here are some quick tutorial videos that cover Live setup and the basics of the interface. There are also truckloads of other tutorials around the net covering all aspects of Live workflow, from beginner to advanced. https://www.ableton.com/en/live/learn-live/

But just using it as a plugin host should be very easy and straightforward.

Just install it, setup your audio and MIDI hardware, add your plugin scan path, and let it scan your plugins. Then you can insert audio or MIDI tracks as desired by dragging and dropping an audio clip or an instrument plugin from the media browser onto the workspace. Audio clips create audio tracks and instruments create MIDI tracks.

The most different thing to learn about Live is that it is essentially like two DAWs in one.  You can toggle between the two views by hitting the "Tab" key.

The default is the Session View, which is like the Cakewalk Groove Matrix on steroids. You can arrange existing clips in here, or record them live, and they will loop in sync as you playback. Triggering individual clips or clip groups (scenes) from a pad controller is one of the strengths of this view.

The alternate view is the Arrangement View, which is a traditional linear DAW track timeline. You can record an improvised arrangement here by setting it to record your Session View as you play with that. Or you can record, arrange, and mix tracks here in a traditional linear way.

 

Edited by abacab
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pax-eterna

pax-eterna

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6 hours ago, abacab said:

Not really.  Here are some quick tutorial videos that cover Live setup and the basics of the interface. There are also truckloads of other tutorials around the net covering all aspects of Live workflow, from beginner to advanced. https://www.ableton.com/en/live/learn-live/

But just using it as a plugin host should be very easy and straightforward.

Just install it, setup your audio and MIDI hardware, add your plugin scan path, and let it scan your plugins. Then you can insert audio or MIDI tracks as desired by dragging and dropping an audio clip or an instrument plugin from the media browser onto the workspace. Audio clips create audio tracks and instruments create MIDI tracks.

The most different thing to learn about Live is that it is essentially like two DAWs in one.  You can toggle between the two views by hitting the "Tab" key.

The default is the Session View, which is like the Cakewalk Groove Matrix on steroids. You can arrange existing clips in here, or record them live, and they will loop in sync as you playback. Triggering individual clips or clip groups (scenes) from a pad controller is one of the strengths of this view.

The alternate view is the Arrangement View, which is a traditional linear DAW track timeline. You can record an improvised arrangement here by setting it to record your Session View as you play with that. Or you can record, arrange, and mix tracks here in a traditional linear way.

 

 

Main reason I am looking is so I can load up MIDI files as my play tracks so that if I get bored with one or for some reason want to drop instrument count, or to try and do a small combo deal it's as easy as muting a track on the night. Problem with audio tracks is it is a p.i.t.a. having to re-do the whole track again and subsequent mixdown etc etc AND you end up with a shitload of different variation versions of the same song.

Second reason is, and I hope this is true, that I can use Ableton to "jump" to markers (using MIDI) so that if the crowd starts dancing in the last 16 of a song I can extend it simply by jumping back to a verse or chorus or whatever.

EDIT: Sorry meant to add a big thanks for the links I'll check them out!

Edited by pax-eterna
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abacab

abacab

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46 minutes ago, pax-eterna said:

 

Main reason I am looking is so I can load up MIDI files as my play tracks so that if I get bored with one or for some reason want to drop instrument count, or to try and do a small combo deal it's as easy as muting a track on the night. Problem with audio tracks is it is a p.i.t.a. having to re-do the whole track again and subsequent mixdown etc etc AND you end up with a shitload of different variation versions of the same song.

Second reason is, and I hope this is true, that I can use Ableton to "jump" to markers (using MIDI) so that if the crowd starts dancing in the last 16 of a song I can extend it simply by jumping back to a verse or chorus or whatever.

I think that if you played around with Live for a few weeks, that you would find some answers. The power of Live, in addition to its celebrated stability, is the non-linear approach in Session View. That is a huge paradigm change if all you have ever used  is linear editors.

Once you realize the power of the Session View and using "scenes" to trigger sections and/or variations of your songs, on demand, then using  markers in a linear track view may seem a bit dated and old fashioned.

Ableton Live Tutorial - What are Scenes?

 

Ableton Live Tutorial - Arrangement View vs Session View

 

Ableton Live Tutorial - How is Ableton Live Unique?

 

 

Edited by abacab
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siordanescu

siordanescu

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Yes! it works very well in Cakewalk live! I helped my daughter, Dorothea, composer, musician and stage designer two years ago, and I made a show / installation / performance based on Laptop, m-audio projectmix , 8-10 tracks with virtual synths, most of them omnisphere, dimension pro ... two voices live, two live synthesizers, a set of 6 microphones  to capture the drums, another 4 microphones for percussion instruments. Some of the instruments were pre-recorded in the MIDI system, or freezed ... there had been musical themes from performances performed  in different theaters in Romania and abroad, over which she, and a percussionist ,played live with voices and other instruments ... and everything synchronized with the video projection (on the Resolume Arena) and two other actors who were still telling pieces of texts from the performances ... and it worked perfectly! .. ... so you can!

 

 

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