Continue, or call it a day?

[Shane_B.]

2 hours ago, Bapu said:

I visited him once (when he was single) and I was in his wedding party when he got married.

I seem to remember something about that from the forum a very long time ago.

Ah the good old days. He had some of his favorite threads in his signature IIRC. Yep, I just searched. I wonder if Steve is still going to A.A.? That thread is kind of awesome and sad all at the same time.

[AndyB01]

Music is my therapy and I've been playing guitar since I was ten (nearly 50 years). I'm a bang average guitarist, considerably less talented on piano and was well down the line when vocal talent was handed out. Doesn't stop me writing songs and publishing them to SoundCloud and BandLab.

Do people like them, I'm not really sure (I guess I care but I don't obsess over it).  I sometimes get a few  strange spam comments and the odd like from all sorts of strange and exotic creatures, but I just delete them and carry on.

I'm not interested in monetising what I produce (as if I could) ? but I love engaging with the folks on here - the feedback is almost always constructive and I've learned loads from the super-talented people on this forum.

However, if you're not feeling the love then stop doing it. My other favourite hobby is fishing but I only go once in a while - too often and it becomes a chore and I end up resenting time sat by a lake that could be better spent doing other stuff.

Each to their own I guess, I hope you find your answer.

Andy

[Jim Roseberry]

Sounds like classic burn-out to me.

Take some time to do other things.

Get away from music for a while.

 

The record business of the 70s-80s no longer exists.

There are no huge signing bonuses.  There are no $500k recording budgets.

 

FWIW, There are other avenues for composers/etc.

We have clients who score video games.

May not seem like a big deal, but some of those games make many millions of dollars (equal to multi-Platinum records).

 

I'm 55, so I can relate to feeling the time ticking.

I still manage to play live... and would like to write/record more.

I'm so involved in the technical side of music... there's not a lot of time/energy left.

I used to talk to the owner of Above Records every week (Rolling Stones, Neville Brothers, etc)... and he'd always ask if I had any music he should hear.

Pained me to have to say... no.  

 

Thinking out loud, we're all involved in music because we love it.

If you love music, I doubt that feeling will permanently go away.

I have a friend who toured opening for Tesla (few years back).

Got back from the tour... $60k in dept.

Sometimes all that glitters isn't gold.

That jaded my friends attitude... and he stepped away from music for several years.

Now, he's starting to get back out there...

If music is what you do... and who you are... that's not going to change.

 

You know... after playing a four hour show, on the way home... the last thing I want to do is listen to music.  ?  

That feeling passes...

 

 

[Jesse Screed]

3 hours ago, InstrEd said:

Hey! I resemble that remark I'll have you know

no you don't

[Jesse Screed]

there once was a practice

i think they referred to it as hara kari

you might be better off watching the grass grow

and then writing a poem

[Tezza]

I think there is too much IIII..... in music today, when you look at professional recordings, think about the number of people collaborating to bring that about. A false belief can be embraced by those who own DAW's that somehow they are going to create professional productions by sitting in front of a computer by themselves in their bedroom and doing everything by themselves. This false belief is also pushed by DAW sellers.

The reality is, I don't think there is any evidence that this has ever happened, even once. The media constantly pushes the idea of the single artist but the reality is there is no such thing, everyone that gets anywhere collaborates with others to create the final product.

If you cannot create professional productions by yourself, it's not your fault, your asking too much. You need to be a professional drummer, professional bass player, professional keyboardist, professional guitarist, professional vocalist etc and professional sound recordist (with a professional studio), professional experienced mixer and sound engineer, professional marketing agent etc

What tends to happen is people get a DAW and then begin the long road to improving their skills in all these areas and more but still end up with half baked results. If your really serious about moving forward then you need to collaborate with others who are strong where you are weak....or you should only seek to complete productions that focus on your strong areas. Many people don't really want to accept this, they want to believe they can do it all themselves but they can't.

There's lots of software that can "help" like drum software to supply you with grooves and professional kit sound, virtual bassist software, loops, keys and guitarist software and you can get a long way but where is the vocalist? where is the professional recording/mixing studio? the professional front end to your DAW?

This is why EDM and electronically based music has erupted the way it has because it is possible to get almost professional sounding backing tracks for newly created songs  in this genre on the computer using electronic drum sounds, synth bass and keys all inputted by a midi controller or using audio/midi loops. But to move it forward you have to collaborate with others to cover your weak areas, usually for most people, to have professional sounding vocals and a professional mixer/sound engineer if you don't have those skills, that is if you want to get seriously commercial. Many just want to do their own songs and thats ok too.

Some people though, just don't have any talent. Their songs are horrid and they just can't see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Smith]

Some people do not enjoy the production side of music. They might love to play otherwise. They may begin to wonder why they aren't picking things up as well as others have.  If it becomes tedious it isn't fun any more.

I go back and forth with creative spurts here and there. I have realized most people never care as much about your music as you do. Just the way it is. I have been HYPED about things I've done only to get sidelined by people who didn't care. I've even been excited about other people's music because I wanted to make it sound better in my studio, only to have them forget they offered to send me their tracks. I never even had a chance.

It's so bad I got all excited about making  music  only to be basically told no one listens to any of it. This was after I spend 3 or 4 hours producing it. 

I still do it though. Why? Because I like to do it. 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Tim Smith

[noynekker]

4 hours ago, Tezza said:

"If you cannot create professional productions by yourself, it's not your fault, your asking too much. You need to be a professional drummer, professional bass player, professional keyboardist, professional guitarist, professional vocalist etc and professional sound recordist (with a professional studio), professional experienced mixer and sound engineer, professional marketing agent etc"

Well, this thread is certainly keeping it real . . . I like Tezza's comment about wearing too many hats, who has all these talents, no matter how much you learn over the years ? . . . let's face it, professional marketing is the furthest away from most musician's expertise, because it has little to do with actually playing and creating music. Hence the failure to procreate the species of your own particular brand of music, hoping someone else will notice you're amazing.

As for Mr. Torture . . . just create some things in a totally different way than you've ever created things, collaborate, learn a new instrument, buy new software etc . . . your muse will lead the way from there, if you still have that muse. If you don't have that initial spark any more, YIKES !

Edited April 14, 2022 by noynekker

[Tim Smith]

So after 12 hours out back sanding rust off of zinc plated steel. Wading around  in 42F water trying to change a pool liner in a 22,000 gallon pool. I sat down intending to maybe work in the DAW and do something, but frankly everything hurts, well ok almost everything hurts. Some things feel good.

I had to have the super shower and my clothes are almost past washing.....so yep, one of those long days doing unfun stuff and now I'm too tired to do the fun stuff. That's what burns me. I hope the mask I wore protected me enough from those small airborne zinc and rust particles. Zince is supposed to be good for you right? Maybe it helped.

[InstrEd]

1 hour ago, Jesse Screed said:

no you don't

You're properly right

[X-53mph]

15 hours ago, Mr. Torture said:

This is my question I ask myself everyday. I'm not a professional song writer, I don't have a full band, I'm 52 years old. There is no outlet to showcase my music and nobody cares about it anyways. I get the occasional like from a buddy, but I feel my era is long gone.

I cannot compete with bands signed to labels like Frontiers and that's the level of quality I expect from myself. I end up with hard drives full of mediocre material. 

It's a lot of work writing, performing, mixing music. So much that it takes the joy out of it. Years ago I could spend every waking moment working on songs, mixing etc. Now I have to force myself to work on it. Anyone else feel this way? Maybe it's just me and I need to give it up. How do you keep going? Where do you showcase your music? Do you get results your completely happy with? Do people actually like your stuff?

I'll be honest. I have ups and downs. Days I love making music and days when I'd happily sell all my guitars. It's normal. I've been lucky in that I've tasted some success, so I know the highs. But with the highs comes the deep lows, and in many ways that makes it worse.

I'm lucky that I've got a son who is amazing on the piano. So I feel the baton has been passed. Even if I gave up tomorrow, there would always be music in my life.

Currently, I'm enjoying putting my stuff out on internet radio. Have you ever pursued that avenue?  I've discovered a few really nice stations that actively support unsigned acts (I don't know the quality of your work, but it needs to be better than demo quality), and I like the community that I've found around these stations.

If you're interested, I can point you in the direction of some stations....but make sure the songs are radio ready. Don't waste your (and their) time sending bad demos.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Philip G Hunt

[kennywtelejazz]

I have no other way of putting this other than the way I'm gonna put it this way now  ?

Back in the day in American history there was a phenomenon called the Gold Rush ...People from all stations and walks of life hung all their dreams and hopes on striking it  Rich .

Most folks even went as far as adopting the viewpoint of them being the exception to the rule ...

BTW never underestimate the power of an Idea no matter how right or wrong it may be  ? ...now back to my story

It's not like the grass wasn't green on their side of the lawn where they stood  the thing is the promise of fame , gold and riches even if only in a fantasy form  made the allure  of finding gold on the other side of the lawn a temptation one could not ignore .

Now what actually happened in the gold rush back then  is repeating itself in today's times with only a slight twist of the plot .The people that went out to strike gold back then needed supply's and all the proper tools to be able to mine gold successfully   . What eventually happened was a greater percentage of people lost everything and went bust ..

The people and business's that had the least amount of risk were able to thrive and succeed only because they were outfitting the potential gold miners and performing the essential services and providing for a fee the food , the supplies , the tools , transportation , the livestock , the lodging , the tents , and  any and all forms of things that people needed to mine successfully .....

In short and in many cases the miners crashed and burned  . Often they may have lost everything due to a multitude of circumstances beyond the scope of this post ..

Ex a couple as a tease  ,,,,,they may have Ran out of money , supplies , picked a bad place to mine , caught the cooties while having a drunken Saturday  night poke with a dance girl with a questionable client roster ...some could have lost their stake in a crooked card game or any other number of possible misfortunes ...those were dangerous times back then . A fella could have gone out to take a poop and got mauled by a bear ...

Now some of you may be asking .......Hey Kenny ! what does any of this have to do with today's music business ?

Being a musician and trying to strike out on your own and make it in the music business today is pretty much the same mountain to climb as being a gold miner from back then during the gold rush .

In spite of all the evidence against personal  success and the achievement of possibly  having created a successful music career  one comes face to face with a parallel dilemma just as what the miner faced .

People going for music may underestimate just like the miners did concerning the level of hardship they may have to endure just to keep on keeping on ....

Then you have the terminal uniqueness and entitlement that one can only apply to oneself ....meaning all the bad stuff is gonna happen to the other guy but  not me because I'm gonna skate my way through this whole ordeal unscathed ...WHY ? ...because I'm me and your you .... don't you know I'm the Big I and your the little u ....

Next we have "The Machine" ...everybody out there is trying to sell me the magic plug , the magic guitar and amp , A subscription of video lessons on how to use a DAW ect ect...

OK now this is not much different than all the people that supplied the miners yet there is one key difference I constantly run across and but my head against .

It's OK to provide a service but don't try to tell me how to do Brain Surgery if you never went to Medical School . Yeah you heard me ....

Don't tell me how to write a hit song if you never wrote one or played on one . Yet on u tube every body is an expert .....I need waterproof boots that go up to my eyeballs when I watch some things over there. 

I have also  noticed that many people have traded in writing songs and all the work that goes into mastering their musical instrument over into trying to gain in  popularity first ....and all the other stuff like hard work has magically become secondary ....

Now if one one wants to be successful in music , sure they  may need to be popular to reach a greater audience the thing is they also need to have the GOODS 

Fake it till you make it is OK to get your foot in the door but I don't know how many times I have witnessed someone online trying to sell me a bill of musical goods that were based on all half truths . I bought , sold and played Vintage guitars and amps up until the mid 80's ....I look online sometimes to see how much some of the stuff I played is going for ....a great percentage of the guitars are high 30 to 40 grand ....now if you looked me dead in the eye I could honestly tell you that some of the new stuff may not have the legend of Camelots story behind it yet the new stuff is fantastic . I have guitars now that only cost me a few hundred that beat the pant's out of some of those vintage Fenders and various guitar brands I used to play .

I have even had people try to tell me what I need to do to play like so and so .....Let me just put it to you this way ....more often that not I will not tell them I was friends with so and so and I used to jam with them for years ....Now a few of them have passed on over to the other side . I want to honor and cherish the times we had together. Out of respect for them and what they taught me I don't want to drop names because I don't want them rolling around in their graves ....You see back then when I was friends with them I was what's happening ...now that time has passed and I'm not sure if I even weathered the storm so with the passage of time  it's more like What Happened ?

Now I am aware the my metaphoric example may not jive with some folks around here I'm OK with it ....I will close this rant with one fast simple tool I like to use that helps me  laugh at myself and some of my grandiose expectations of my place in the music businesses ....
I call it my letter to Dear Abby ......

Dear Abby ,

Hello my name is Kenny and I am about to become  40 years old next month ?       I am struggling with how to become a professional musician .

I have been studying and playing the guitar all my life , and it is not true when they say when one door closes another door opens ...not even a window opens from what I can tell so far ....I am asking for your help because I may be missing something over here .

Also , I have never been married and I live with a dog ....? what should I do ?

..........all the rest of this letter is for my eyes only ........the point is to be able to shine a light on some of these old ideas and attitudes ......

in a best case scenario my goal is to be as truthful as possible ........and hopefully get a look and be able to release some of my old stinking thinking ...

for the record that's a hard one for me yet humor seems to be the tool that seems to help release the pain the most  ....

Signed Kenny

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Dear Kenny ,

Please seek help soon ...I can assure you you will not want to be in your mid 60's alone living with a dog and finding  yourself still struggling with some of these issues ..Yadayada  yada yada   have you considered going back to school ? yada yada yada .....maybe you can take up printing and learn how to recreate a passable 50 dollar bill Yayda yada ydadddaaa ...see I told you about karma ...yada yada yada all women like men that have money ......yada yadadadadad yada ....

I sincerely wish you the best in your journey

Abby

 

Aye !Aye! Aye !  Life can sure be hard  . Even the experts can be full of it ...

I need to play some guitar because  it always makes me feel good ,,,ding ding ding ding ding ...we have a winner ..what a great reason to play music .

Kenny

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by kennywtelejazz

[Pragi]

21 hours ago, Mr. Torture said:

This is my question I ask myself everyday. I'm not a professional song writer, I don't have a full band, I'm 52 years old. There is no outlet to showcase my music and nobody cares about it anyways. I get the occasional like from a buddy, but I feel my era is long gone.

I cannot compete with bands signed to labels like Frontiers and that's the level of quality I expect from myself. I end up with hard drives full of mediocre material. 

It's a lot of work writing, performing, mixing music. So much that it takes the joy out of it. Years ago I could spend every waking moment working on songs, mixing etc. Now I have to force myself to work on it. Anyone else feel this way? Maybe it's just me and I need to give it up. How do you keep going? Where do you showcase your music? Do you get results your completely happy with? Do people actually like your stuff?

I know your situation very well.

For me it is working that way:

I'm  keeping it simple, if I feel not in the mood, to play(yes, the word play) my Instruments  I don't play and create music.

While I'm very  busy in earning money for daily life, I'm at least doing some technical exercises to stay halfway fit on my guitars and so.

I'm happy that in handling it this way there is not much time when I don' t like to play, perhaps 4 weeks per year.

I hope you 'll find a way to have fun playing music.

Pete

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Pragi

[Mr. Torture]

Thank you all for your comments, it is a bit reassuring that I am not alone. I think my biggest issue right now is, do I make the plunge and upgrade my computer and continue? Or do I simply liquidate and move on? My computer is about ready to give up the ghost, occasional blue screens of death, popping & clicking, I'm just worn out trying to keep it going.

I have a hard time justifying $3500 Plus on a new sled for a hobby that generates zero rewards. The biggest issue is my singer simply has lost all confidence and is too fixated on how great everyone else is (Professional singers) versus himself. It's a real drag when he comes in, sings a couple bars and just hates it all.

I figure that I might as well hang it up, sell the recording gear and dust off the old practice amp for the occasional play around.

Again, I really appreciate this forum and the healthy conversation this thread has generated. 

[X-53mph]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Torture said:

Thank you all for your comments, it is a bit reassuring that I am not alone. I think my biggest issue right now is, do I make the plunge and upgrade my computer and continue? Or do I simply liquidate and move on? My computer is about ready to give up the ghost, occasional blue screens of death, popping & clicking, I'm just worn out trying to keep it going.

I have a hard time justifying $3500 Plus on a new sled for a hobby that generates zero rewards. The biggest issue is my singer simply has lost all confidence and is too fixated on how great everyone else is (Professional singers) versus himself. It's a real drag when he comes in, sings a couple bars and just hates it all.

I figure that I might as well hang it up, sell the recording gear and dust off the old practice amp for the occasional play around.

Again, I really appreciate this forum and the healthy conversation this thread has generated. 

Just get a decent laptop second hand for all round work and use that for everything. At this point in your life there is no point having a boutique machine. If you're not making money from your music, don't throw more money at it if you cannot afford it.

3500 is a ridiculous amount to spend on a hobby. Just gets second hand laptop for under 1k.

[Mr. Torture]

14 minutes ago, Philip G Hunt said:

Just get a decent laptop second hand for all round work and use that for everything. At this point in your life there is no point having a boutique machine. If you're not making money from your music, don't throw more money at it if you cannot afford it.

3500 is a ridiculous amount to spend on a hobby. Just gets second hand laptop for under 1k.

Yeah, I could. Means a new soundcard too as mine is PCIe. 

[X-53mph]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Torture said:

Yeah, I could. Means a new soundcard too as mine is PCIe. 

If you're a hobbiest, a laptop and usb-c soundcard will set you back less than 1,000 (if you shop smart).

Spending a fortune on a man cave in your 50s is a sign of mid-life crisis. ?

[Mr. Torture]

18 minutes ago, Philip G Hunt said:

If you're a hobbiest, a laptop and usb-c soundcard will set you back less than 1,000 (if you shop smart).

Spending a fortune on a man cave in your 50s is a sign of mid-life crisis. ?

I've been recording since 1986, I am way past spending a fortune ?

[Starship Krupa]

Lot of food for thought here.

The question that hasn't been addressed directly is "what do you hope to get out of making music?"

We all grew up in that (relatively brief in terms of musical and human  history) when (a relatively tiny percentage of) being a popular musician (and by popular, I mean following the tastes of the day) could possibly lead to international fame and riches. The "gold rush" that Kenny so wisely draws a parallel with.

It used to confound me no end that the music "players" magazines placed so much emphasis on the "make it big and play in big venues" goal, as if everyone who bought a Squier Strat was supposed to have that goal and if it didn't happen, that was "failure." Someone finally came out with a magazine, I don't know if it's still around, I picked up a copy at NAMM and subscribed, called Making Music, which was dedicated to the hobby of playing and singing "just" for fun, not professionally. They had famous cover artists, but they were mostly people who were famous in other fields, successful actors, successful businesspeople, whatever. In other words it was a magazine for 99.99% of the people who buy a Squier Strat. Yet my subscription was free and I never saw it in bookstores. I mention it because at the time it was such a breath of fresh air.

Since the very suppliers of tools and services depend on selling those tools and services to survive, they have (or at least believe they do) more to gain by perpetuating the myth. There's an upward path that starts with taking music lessons and ends at "pop star" and anyone who puts their foot on that path and doesn't make it all the way to the end "didn't make it." We're all older, so we have had this experience, but back when I was in a music scene, which was underground rock in San Francisco from '85-'95, nobody ever said "I play in bands as a hobby" even though everyone was doing it as a hobby, with the exception of a few, most of whom eventually gave up. It just wasn't cool to say you were doing it for fun even though in reality, there was no other reason to be doing it.

All of this is to get to my point: I think it's important to be aware and honest with ourselves about what we really want and expect from playing music. And if we're feeling frustrated and unfulfilled, it's a good time to reassess that. Why did you start playing? Why do you continue to play? What would you like to "get back" from it (if anything) and what level of expectation do you have that you can get that back?

People who paint, do woodworking, ride bicycles, swim, play amateur team sports, own custom cars, sail, build electronics projects, stargaze, build model railroads, whatever, as hobbies don't seem to suffer as many illusions as people who do music, or at least that's my impression. Another of my hobbies is woodworking, or at least it is a sometime hobby, it comes and goes. I have some nice power tools including a Jet contractor saw in my basement. Would I say "it's really tough to make it in woodworkingbiz" or "I've been making things out of wood for 20 years and what do I have to show for it?" Heck no. I don't have the desire to become good enough at it to the point where I could hope to do it professionally, but when my vintage home needs some trim replaced, or I need shelves or whatever, it's fun and economical to be able to do it myself.

Why isn't it as okay to have music be a hobby? Or am I even correct in the perception that it is less so?

Fortunately, before I started doing it, I had it figured out that I was never going to become a "rock star," but I still had goals. When I was little, bla bla, Beatles on TV bla bla. I looked at those guys and immediately wanted to do that. Not because they had all these people looking at them, but because it looked fun and cool. I wanted to get up on a stage with an instrument and make music with it and look cool. That was it. So decades later, when my first hobby band played its first real gig, and I experienced that unique sensation (I call it standing in the middle of a tornado while people pat you on the back). The big checkmark got crossed off and anything subsequent was gravy. And for the following 40 years, I've tried to keep my musical goals simple and realistic. I've gone without barely touching an instrument for years, I've switched primary instruments, learned how to write songs, etc. etc. But it's always been about seeing something and wanting to be able to do it.

I did some deep diving at one point to figure out what it was about, to provide momentum for continuing, and came to the conclusion that I feel things that I can't express in other ways, and I want to express them, and connect with as many people who care to listen. Which is what listening to music is for me. Someone's expressing an emotion in their music and I listen and it makes me happy, and/or helps me know that I'm not alone in sadness or confusion or anger and/or provides me with a soundtrack for my life and inspires me to jump up and down and shake my butt.  That's a beautiful process and I want to be on both ends of it.

And it can be one person I'm playing to, or 100, or 1000 the more the merrier. If whatever styles I happen to be interested are no longer "in fashion," that doesn't matter any more, because there are so many outlets for people to find niche music. Being an old fart doesn't matter like it used to.

I've always liked shiny toys, so owning up a collection of tools for making music has always been a big part of the fun, and I've worked at MI companies and even had my own for a while. I love my many guitars and basses and microphones and my Slingerland drum kit. They're shiny and make my heart smile. Also my Glitchmachines and Plugin Alliance and Meldaproduction and Cakewalk and Mixcraft and Ableton software and my Focusrite interface and all that.

Starting with The Beatles again, I've always been interested in sound recording technology (Yellow Submarine soundtrack was the first rock record I owned, with all the crazy sounds on "Bulldog," and "Northern Song"), so now I have a home studio rig where I can create whatever sound I can manage to pick up the skills to create.

For someone with my personal goals in making music, right now is the best time to be doing it in history! Geniuses keep shoveling incredible music making software onto my computer for cheap or even free! If I make something I like and want to make it available for others to listen to or purchase, I can do that without leaving my chair!

I think the fact that anyone can put their music on Bandcamp is really great, so I made a song that I thought was worthy of that (and not incidentally, learned all the steps that it takes to set up the account, make a halfway decent looking cover page, etc). Check that one off. I'd like to be played on one or more of the streaming stations that plays the kind of music I like, so I went to my favorite station's site and learned how to submit songs. Check (they haven't played it yet, AFAIK). I made a video for the song because I think videos are fun. And so, thanks to the times we live in, my song is up on YouTube just like all the musicians whose work I love. Check.

So, for anyone who is making music, or wants to, I would suggest that it's important at any point in the journey to know what you really want from it and as much as possible be realistic about whether those goals are achievable given the amount of drive and effort and talent you have to put toward them. And adjust them if necessary. If your goal is "earn my living with music," maybe that's going to have to include playing in cover bands and teaching. If your goal is "play for thousands of people," learn all the personal skills you can to make connections. Become emotionally resilient enough to weather inevitable setbacks. Some people did actually get some gold out of the hills, but they had to get survival skills fast. Whatever. If there were shame in not becoming a rock star, then that shame goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. And news: getting paid to do something you already love is a privilege only a tiny percentage of people ever get to experience, even once. The vast majority work at jobs they at best tolerate, but often just endure. "Deserve's" got nothin' to do with it!

Edited April 14, 2022 by Starship Krupa

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

At this point in your life there is no point having a boutique machine. If you're not making money from your music, don't throw more money at it if you cannot afford it.

3500 is a ridiculous amount to spend on a hobby. Just gets second hand laptop for under 1k.

This is a matter of perspective. Would you say the same thing to a sailing or fishing friend who was thinking of spending the same amount of money on a boat? $3500's cheap for a boat! Why would we think that a boat should pay for itself in any dividends other than enjoyment? How about a pop-up camping tent?

(BTW, I agree with you that $3500 is too much, period, to spend on a computer, but someone with the handle "Mr. Torture" might be a Mac user, in which case, hey sweet deal!)

On the other hand, if that friend didn't have much disposable income  and had the expectation of becoming a professional charter skipper or nature guide, and had been trying to do so for 20 years without coming close to earning a living, we might suggest against it. Maybe there wasn't as much money to be made as a single boat skipper or independent nature guide as they thought. Maybe those fields are too competitive and/or controlled by larger companies who can afford insurance, advertising, etc. Maybe while it's fun to take your boat out every other weekend, it's less fun to HAVE to take it out full of people who may or may not be fun to go boating with, or face not being able to make your housing payment.

It's okay for a job to be something we don't always love doing, and it's okay for a hobby not to earn us money. For some reason, that truth seems to come more easily to non-musicians. ?

Edited April 14, 2022 by Starship Krupa