No sound during MIDI recording of a track - but does on playback

[Robert Glaser]

This is a new issue for me and it suddenly started happening. It is the second piece where this issue has happened. It is not consistent in that it happens on particular instruments, tracks, or conditions.

I'm working on a large orchestral piece. 23 MIDI Instrument tracks (almost all EastWest instruments) with about 55 MIDI (performance) tracks assigned to those instruments. Typically most of the instruments have 8 or less MIDI track assigned to them.
For example, first instrument will have 8 MIDI tracks of 4 flutes, 3 oboes, and 1 English horn. A second instrument will have 8 MIDI tracks of 3 clarinets, 1 Bass Clarinet, 3 Bassoons, 1 Contrabassoon, and so on.
 When building up the piece, I'll play on one track while listening to the others. At some point While playing recording a MIDI track (say Clarinet 1) I will not be able to hear the clarinet when I'm recording. (and when that happens, I can't hear any other MIDI track for that Instrument. All of the other instruments are fine.) Now here's the thing: when I playback and I'm not in record mode, all of the MIDI track play, including the one that I recorded but couldn't hear during the recording. 

I also cannot hear what I'm playing on any MIDI track for that instrument until the disarm the track and click on a MIDI track for another instrument first, them come back to the silent track and it will play again, but only until I arm that track or any other track for that instrument.

It doesn't seem to be a file or memory size issue since I have files that are both larger and contain more instruments and tracks. I've tried to close and reopen the file, close and reopen Cakewalk, and even shut down and restart Windows to no effect. There are no other programs running, and there are no muted or soloed tracks and no errors being presented. 

The useless skill this is teaching me is to play better on a silent keyboard to existing tracks and then go back and see how well I played after the fact. 

I Xeon Quad Core, 64GB RAM, >750 Gb space on nmve pci drives. Windows 11. No suddenly new hardware or drivers before this just started to happen.

[tecknot]

Hi Robert,

Can you post a picture of the Track View?  It seems that you merely have to activate Input Echo when recording, but you may already have that activated.

Kind regards,

tecknot

[Robert Glaser]

That doesn't appear to be the problem. There are two screenshots here showing two different highlights (1-WillSound) which shows a flute track that sounds fine when recording. The secon (2-WillNotSound) shows a similar track for a bassoon on a different instrument which doesn't sound while recording, but does on playback.

[John Vere]

Then the only other reason I can think of is you are using input channels and not Omni.  

[David Baay]

The first step would be to determine if it's a  MIDI problem or an audio problem. Since you already have separate MIDI and synth tracks, Check the MIDI track meter when the synth is not sounding to confirm MIDI is or is not being echoed (MIDI track meters are output meters, and are not affected by the arming state)

If it's a MIDI echo problem, possibly the 'Always Echo Current MIDI Track function is failing somehow, in which case you might try forcing  Echo On by clicking the button.

If MIDI is being successfully echoed, and the synth is not sounding. I would check to see if disabling Zero Controllers When Playback Stops might have a bearing . Depending on the synth, this might be evident from watching for the mod wheel or faders in the synth's UI to change when the transport is stopped/started.

It would be unusual for a channelization issue to depend on the state of playback, recording or arming, so I doubt that's relevant.

Edited March 15, 2022 by David Baay

[Robert Glaser]

It's not the input channels as they are both on Omni.

It seems to be an issue with Echo. Whether its manually on or Always On doesn't affect it. There is clearly no sound coming out during record. 
Zero Controllers When Playback stops isn't (and wasn't on). Chase controllers on Playback is but turning it off had no effect.
It seems that the MIDI is successfully echoed but the the synth isn't sounding (again, only during recording.

A few notes:
The track will sound on playback even if the track is armed (as it should.) 
Once this state happens to an instrument, no MIDI track directed to that instrument (track) will sound during recording.
Console shows MIDI registering but not audio (during recording.)
Once this happens to an instrument track, it stays in this state.
 

 

[David Baay]

Your screenshot appears to show you are using both separate MIDI tracks and Instrument tracks (combined MIDI and Synth audio). I noticed recently that it is possible to direct a second MIDI track to a synth that's set up as an instrument track, and it will work, but this is a bit of  a non-standard setup, and potentially problematic. I would suggest using one or the other with any given synth - either separate MIDI and Synth tracks or Instrument tracks. And in either case, synths should be inserted in the Synth Rack rather than in FX bins of Audio tracks.

[Robert Glaser]

This is the setup I have used for years. There are no MIDI events in the instrument tracks, only the MIDI tracks. The MIDI tracks are directed to the instrument track and the instrument is set up with multiple channels and sample(sound) sources for each assigned channel. The number of channels per instrument is limited based on both load as well as type (for suitable mixing) so the instrument is only an audio output. Each instrument is in the Synth Rack.

[user 905133]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

I noticed recently that it is possible to direct a second MIDI track to a synth that's set up as an instrument track, and it will work, but this is a bit of  a non-standard setup, and potentially problematic.

After having issues routing MIDI to hybrid instrument tracks (audio + MIDI), I have gone back to the old school method of having multiple MIDI tracks pointed to a soft synth/instrument track that has plug-ins.  For me, I have more control over routing than trying to use the combined instrument tracks without MIDI tracks point to them.

So, my question is about this practice being potentially problematic: Is it more a problem because some users might get confused/lost in what they are trying to do, or are there known issues where sooner or later, Cakewalk will get confused?  

Thanks. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by User 905133
corrected punctuation

[David Baay]

i did a quick test, and could not reproduce an issue and there may not be any. I'm just thinking that a non-standard setup like this is not likely to have been thoroughly tested, and there might be unanticipated side effects, especially as it relates to mute/solo functionality.

And there is certainly potential for confusion on the part of the user with regard to conflicting settings of MIDI volume/pan widgets or contention of controllers on different tracks driving the same synth channel.

[John Vere]

I switched to using Simple instrument tracks over a year ago. I often will also add a midi track that is pointed at it. There should be absolutly no difference between this and the old split instrument method. Both are identical with a very small differences. The only difference to me that's of note,  is I can reduce my track count by using Simple Instrument tracks because the midi data shares the track.  

 A good example would be insert TTS-1 as a Simple instrument track and place channel 1 midi track there. Then add 15 more midi tracks each on a different channel from CH 2 to CH 16. No problems. 

The OP has certainly discovered a weird one. 

I'm not sure if this was asked but if you insert another instrument, like SI bass, what happens? 

[Robert Glaser]

David Baay: The instruments are simple instrument tracks. I have 23  of them in this particular project. There are 124 MIDI tracks each directed at an instrument track. They are all carefully organized to address a large symphony orchestra. Increasing the number of instruments significantly will make it unmanageable from a processing standpoint. Decreasing the number of instruments shifts the load to each of those instruments which becomes counter productive for the performance as well as making mixing problematic. Also there are no effects on MIDI channels and the only controller events used are either volume, expression, sustain, and rarely pitch bend. 

This setup approach was recommended to me by Cakewalk support in the past, probably some time around when Sonar first came out.

John Vere: If I insert another instrument into the project and add notes, the new instrument will work just fine as many of the instruments already do. I doesn't affect the existing track and instruments (whether they are the problem ones or the ones that work fine.)

Edited March 16, 2022 by Robert Glaser

[David Baay]

4 hours ago, Robert Glaser said:

There are 124 MIDI tracks each directed at an instrument track.

That's not how MIDI and instrument tracks work. MIDI tracks output to synths and Synth tracks receive the audio output of the synth, and make it available for mixing. An Instrument track combines the function of a MIDI track and Synth track with the synth residing in the Synth Rack. Another MIDI track can output to the synth in parallel with the MIDI part of a synth track but not through the synth track. The intent of an Instrument track is to provide a single MIDI and synth audio output track to interact with a 'monotimbral' synth or a single channel of a multitimbral synth.  Some time ago, CbB introduced the ability to create a separate Instrument track for each output or (stereo pair of outputs) in a multitimbral synth. This would be the preferred way to use Instrument tracks with a multitimbral synth now.

I am not advocating that you use any more or fewer synth instances (although it can be more efficient in some cases to run more instances of a synth with fewer channels per instance) just that you use separate Instrument tracks to route MIDI into and audio out of each channel of a multitimbral synth independently.

I have to reiterate that there's no clear indication that your current routing is contributing to the problem, but both the setup and the symptoms are unusual so it begs the question whether they might be related. Also, it makes it harder to diagnose  when a  single synth channel is potentially receiving MIDI from more than one track. 

EDIT: I should add that the traditional way of working with a multitimbral synth using a single stereo output from the synth and doing the mixing in the synth, which appears to be your intent, would be to host the audio output with a Synth track (i.e. a normal audio track getting input from a synth) not an Instrument track.

Edited March 16, 2022 by David Baay

[Robert Glaser]

Thanks David Baay
That clarifies some things to me, however, I'm not clear on the definition of Synth Track vs Instrument track. I know that when I set up the project, I would (as an example) choose Insert>Synth Track>EastWest > "Single instrument track"* >in the EastWest Synth window choose my custom preset for a group of instruments assigned to specific MIDI channels (e.g. piccolo for ch 1, Flute 1 to ch 2, Flute 2 to ch 3, etc.). 

Then I would create several MIDI tracks and  set the output to the synth track, the input to my keyboard controller (All External/Omni), the channel to one of the specific instruments in the preset.

* I don't choose "Single Instrument per output" because of load. I had originally tried this but, amongst other issues, the absurd amount of time freezing every single track was absurd. (I thought, that although there was only one instrument for a group of tracks in the synth rack that I could freeze it from there didn't work. I could only unfreeze from there but I had to freeze in the track view.) The traditional way of just feeding every synth to an audio track doesn't work because of the size of the project. What I have to do is freeze a each synth (which are EastWest samplers so the freezing has to be done in realtime) and then bouncing the audio to audio tracks which are then saved and used for mixing. I don't use FX in this master file.

Is there a different way to set that up?

Of course I still have the issue of the original post.

[scook]

There are two basic types of tracks in CbB - audio and MIDI.

An instrument track is a simplified presentation of an audio+MIDI track pair.

The term "synth track" refers to an audio track with a synth plug-in as its input.

[Robert Glaser]

Scook: Does having an audio track with a synth Plugin add processor overhead as compared to an instrument track?
Can it (the synth) be frozen? (I'm looking at this from the production side of managing a large complex MIDI file being completed and then converted into mix tracks.)

[scook]

13 minutes ago, Robert Glaser said:

Scook: Does having an audio track with a synth Plugin add processor overhead as compared to an instrument track?
Can it (the synth) be frozen? (I'm looking at this from the production side of managing a large complex MIDI file being completed and then converted into mix tracks.)

There is no performance advantage using either synth or instrument tracks.

The only difference between freezing an instrument track and freezing an audio+MIDI track pair is where the audio is written.

Instrument tracks display MIDI when unfrozen and audio when frozen.

Audio+MIDI track pairs always display MIDI in the MIDI track and audio in the audio track. The audio track is the target for freezing, synth audio recording and waveform preview. The last two features are unique to synth tracks. 

Instrument tracks cannot perform synth audio recording or waveform preview, however; it is possible to split instrument tracks to reveal the underlying audio and MIDI track. Also, an audio+MIDI track pair may be merged into an instrument track. The split and merge options are in the track header context menu.

[Robert Glaser]

Good information, butnot particularly relevant to me since I'm essentially working entirely with samples. The advantages of of synth audio recording and waveform preview aren't really useful to my work although I can see their advantages. 

Still don't have a solution to my original problem though. ☹️

[David Baay]

I think we'll need to see a copy of the project/template to have any chance of figuring this out, but I don't have any of the EastWest stuff. Can you reproduce the problem with some other multitimbral synth? I have  Kontakt, Sampletank and Aria Player.

[Robert Glaser]

I'll try to reproduce it with another. I have some Arturia synths (V Collection 8 and Pigments), and I use Kontakt for Amadeus Orchestra samples.
I did try to use the template and then copy a lot of MIDI into it (Respighi Fountains of Rome which is bigger in both track count and MIDI size than both of the problem project files.) There was no issue with that file, but keep in mind that the issue happened after I'd been working in the files for a while. 

There's also a possibility that one of the updates from the last few months created a glitch in the file saving/writing process since it didn't happen first until sometime in Feb and I've been working on these types of files (these specific templates I set up with EastWest instruments) for well over more than 18 months.

I think I'll also try to copy the guts of the whole problematic  file into a new empty template and see if that works. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Robert Glaser