Thoughts on Music Education

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, telecode 101 said:

you are a human doormat anywhere you work. you get treated like shit. all depends how you  accept that. i am in (i guess you could call it big end) IT.. we deal with quasi big shots trying to do big data and ML.. you get treated like a door mat all the time. but it beats fixing iphones .. so i do it do the doormat routine with a smile on my face.

 

Trust me it's not the same.

[Tim Smith]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:46 AM, telecode 101 said:

Wife thinks not a chance in hell. I say ,anything is possible. Thoughts?

You do know women are right 99.999999999% of the time right? 

She is his mom and would probably know better than anyone. My opinion is that it's a lot to do in a short time window. Probably too much unless he is a fast astute learner with a great memory who will dig in. Even then it's a lot of work to make that kind of a jump in that amount of time.

I agree with others that his heart should be in it regardless of whether he attempts to take the route mentioned or any other musical route. I don't mean partially in, I mean IN IT. Can't waver at difficulty.

The next question is, "if" he makes that grade what's the next step? Every journey starts with the first step, but one also has to look at the journey. Does he want to be sitting in front of a class full of 4th graders teaching them basic music? Every day all year long? If at the high school level, you still have to put up with the drummers, out of tune horns and people who should not be in the band. I was in the high school band and I would not have wanted to be my teacher lol. Is this what he is signing up for?

What are the other options?  We seen what happened to the night club and bar trade during COVID. Even when it's good it's probably a struggle. How about a church music leader? Usually low or barely adequate pay. He could break into Hollywood or the New York scene, but then there's a lot of riffraff and stuff you have to put up with there too. Record sales are dismal compared to several decades ago. The records that do sell. Let's just say it's complicated. The percentages are similar to playing the lottery and winning it. And once you get on top you realize it isn't really much fun up there. The money coming into it comes from people who run organizations with agendas and they don't care what you want. Sound dismal? I've only told you the good news.

I work for a large educational institution and my wife is an educator. Back before education was simply learning something it was great. Now education is indoctrination. It's social engineering, but then so is most TV programming. 

 

[Notes_Norton]

On 3/11/2022 at 7:52 AM, telecode 101 said:

you are a human doormat anywhere you work.<...snip...>

Only if you are a wage slave.

I work for myself. As an entertainer, I get applause every 5 minutes or so, and the end of the gig I get people thanking me for a delightful afternoon/evening, and when I am playing the music, I'm in that zone where there is no time, no space, no me; just the music feeling like it's flowing through me instead of from me.

Mrs. Notes and I love playing music for an appreciative audience, and although we are not going to get rich, or even wealthy playing music for a living, we paid off the mortgage, we have zero debt, we're having a great time, and we answer to nobody but ourselves. No doormat here, instead mini-star status.

We played in larger bands before, but started our duo in 1985, since then, until COVID reared its ugly self, we were never out of work. Now that COVID is fading, we're back at it, we have 14 one-nighter gigs this month.

Life is good.

[Adalheidis Daina Aletheia]

Music education comes in different formats and fashions, different aspects. And some things work for others and some things don't. 

Theory/Reading: I always got frustrated with music theory and reading music, I have always been fascinated by it, but never good at it. But that doesn't really mean anything. Music theory and reading music is kind of like mathematics in ways, either it clicks well with you, or your brain says, does not compute. Just one aspect of music. I took piano lessons throughout elementary school but was not so good at keeping up with reading sheet music. but better at it in middle school when I played the flute (less notes to read at one time). If you can't become a child prodigy musician, it doesn't mean you suck, it just means it's not your thing. There is other forms of art and music.

Songwriting/Improv: Playing by ear and songwriting or composing without sheet music works better for me. I took a songwriting course at a community college and it was more enjoyable than piano lessons. It reassured me I could write music without being a child prodigy pianist.

Midi: I took a midi course at the same community college in the mid 90's when midi and computer software was a new thing, especially for a college course. Now technology is getting involved.

Music Management: Also took legal and commercial music management courses. That pretty much did it in for me when we went over sixty page record label contracts where you pretty much sign your life away to a corporation. Those courses showed me the filth that has polluted the innocent self expression of music, and arts. At this point, this thread can go hand in hand with the thread, "Just how bad has today's "popular" music become?"  https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/topic/41008-just-how-bad-has-todays-popular-music-become/

Conclusion: Though I am thankful for the educational experiences I did have, I wish I had more options at a younger age for a larger variety of music education beyond what I had all together. And this is an issue with allot things, education, and a wider variety of options than just piano lessons and grade school band. I also took allot of art classes and eventually got my BFA in Design Arts and Art History. But still a worthless degree. Though arts and music should not be worthless, but they are still treated that way. This goes along with again another thread "Education and Music"  https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/topic/41116-education-and-music/

Personally, I think both music and arts education should be the only focus of grade school education, but with the capacity of a music and art college and without the limitations of grades and exams. Art and music College should have been our k-12 education. Teaching children to be creative, self expressive, and learn how to work together, but leave out all the competition aspects involved with music and arts. It shouldn't be about competition and who is better, or who can and cannot pass an exam. It should be just about being creative, self expression, and working together. But I guess the politicians never thought about that. They really screwed everyone over pretty good.

As far as this theory exam they want him to pass? That is ridiculous. For a music theory specific school, ok, I could see some logic in it. But not music in general. If that is the qualifications to get into a music school now, that's rough. If it is possible to pass it with a year's worth of studying? Yes, it is possible, if he wants to really do it. Anything is possible.

[sarine]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:07 AM, Adalheidis Daina Aletheia said:

As far as this theory exam they want him to pass? That is ridiculous. For a music theory specific school, ok, I could see some logic in it. But not music in general. If that is the qualifications to get into a music school now, that's rough.

To be fair, in order to teach there must be some way to communicate ideas, and the formalized theory of music is a well established language to communicate ideas relating to [western] music. It's not preposterous from a university to expect a serious student to know basic music theory.

 

On 3/13/2022 at 12:07 AM, Adalheidis Daina Aletheia said:

Music theory and reading music is kind of like mathematics in ways, either it clicks well with you, or your brain says, does not compute.

I get your frustration. I'd just add that, just like with math, for some people the language itself is a bigger hurdle than the ideas it's used to express. Music theory may seem difficult to get into because of the jargon, syntax and concepts used to describe a reality that doesn't really have parallels outside of itself. In addition to the arcane language and other historical baggage, it is mathematical in nature, but the useful stuff is very basic. If you approach it as a comprehensible and useful bounded system on which somebody sprayed a thick coating of repelling terminology, you'll win.

[Byron Dickens]

Exactly. It's kind of hard to talk intelligently about things with other people unless you have a common language amongst you.

[craigb]

I've always looked at "music education" like a many-legged table where each leg is an aspect of the learning.  If all you do is learn how to play an instrument, but not why or how to maintain said instrument (for example) then it's like one leg is long while the others are too short and your table falls over.   I think you need to learn some of one part, then some of another, etc. before you go back to expand your knowledge on the first part. 

Depending on just how far you want to go, you've got music theory, perfect pitch & relative pitch, harmony, instrument knowledge, instrument playing (which is different), instrument maintenance, amplification, gear (& effects), mixing, recording, how to gig, and how to integrate with other musicians.  Note that when I say "instrument" that could include your voice!  (Or a turntable if you're a DJ like Zo! ? )

[57Gregy]

I have no formal music education whatsoever. But, there was a time when people actually paid me to play music, as hard as that is to believe.
I would not push a child to do something they may not want to do just because they might get paid more in 30 years.
Saying that, I believe there is no bad education.

 

[Notes_Norton]

Music education comes in many forms, from formal schooling, to your buddy musicians showing you things, to completely self-taught (by ear).

I am in favor of learning as much as I can in all the different ways you can. They more you know, the more you will be able to do with your instrument(s). That alone doesn't make you a good musician, but a good technician. It teaches you how to use and apply the tools.

IMO a good musician is about talent, and a self-taught 3 chord blues person can be a great musician. However, a person with the same amount of talent (musicianship) who has learned how to use and apply those tools can usually make much better music.

On the other hand, if the person hasn't got the talent, all the command of the tools in the world won't make great music, just empty notes.

You can't have too much education.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Tim Smith]

I suspect that many who play music and didn't go for a professional degree always wonder what it would have been like if they did.

At least these are my thoughts after many years playing music. Sure I had the basics early on and I took a few lessons. I  self educated a lot since then in both music technology and music theory. I only wanted to learn enough theory to get me by since it was too much like math class. I have been involved with other musicians, some of them educated at very well respected and expensive music colleges. Some of them more like Notes, going to gigs and making money doing what they like.One of those persons is sometimes asked to play with a local orchestra. He is more talented than most and has a great personality to go along with it.

I readily acknowledge I will probably only ever get to a certain level. I sometimes ask myself "what if" I had gone into music as a career 100% ?  Everyone is different. I had too many other interests, some of which have helped me to own a home with a pool in the back yard and multiple cars with enough income to not feel strapped . Much of what I can do as a result of my other training which is  varied means I didn't have to pay someone else big $$ to do it. This had the effect of increasing my net worth. I have always enjoyed working with my hands.

If I had gone into music as my life's goal I would have forever been an unhappy "one trick pony" and I probably would have felt I missed out on other things. For me music is only one of the things I like to do. I have great respect for those who put their entire lives into it and do well at it. "If" I had been extremely successful at music, I know I would have still had other interests on the side.

Ted Nugent likes to hunt. I'm not a hunter, but I would probably have  a shop somewhere and be fixing or building something when I wasn't at my music day job.

When it comes right down to it, survival is important. In order to survive having a list of other skills isn't a bad thing.

The problem is, too many wanna bes look at the top of the music pinnacle and want to be there not realizing most of their success was based on a marketing machine only a few can take advantage of if looking at modern music stars. If looking at professional music, there are only a few of those slots. I have a friend who is graduating with a degree in conducting. At the pro level they make millions conducting orchestras. I hope he makes it, but the reality is he just jumped into a career with few slots.

A guy who gets a zillion plays on YouTube or any other social network might get the attention of the big industry guys with the money. Might as in it's a a slim chance. Only if they think they can market you. In that case- sign on the dotted line

Edited March 15, 2022 by Tim Smith

[Notes_Norton]

When I was young, in a road band, eventually opening for major stars in concert, I was making a lot of money. Motown courted us as their first choice for an all-white band to be released on their family of labels. Unfortunately, the talks broke down over money, (Motown wanted to exploit us), and the band broke up.

After that I took a day gig using the electronics I also took in school but found being normal isn't for me so before long, I want back to playing music. Back to regular gigs, back to normal money, back to less glamour, but still playing music, still having fun, still having those gals make eyes at me.

I eventually met a female musician who I fell in love with. She is a fantastic singer and plays guitar and synth. She is my lover, bandmate, and my very best friend. 44 years later, we are still having a great time together. I won the love-lottery - it was pure luck.

At this point in my life, I don't see me ever making enough money for fancy cars or a house with a pool. I buy brand new minivans to haul my gear and drive them until they are unreliable, usually about 200k miles. The mortgage is paid off, no pool, but a half acre one lot away from a two-mile wide lagoon, east of that a 1/4 mile barrier island, and then the Atlantic Ocean in Florida. It was a good buy, it's worth over 10 times what I paid for it. I know the rule in Florida, the closer to the ocean the higher the percentage of appreciation.

Until COVID we travel once a year as close as the US or as far as China and Australia. We've been on every continent but Antarctica. Travel is one of our passions.

But I enjoy my life. Instead of saying "I have to go to work today", I say "I GET to go to work today!" I don't have excessive material things, but my life is rich with experience. Mrs. Notes and I prefer the experience over possessions, as long as we're not needy.

I enjoy my life, I live it on my own terms, I answer to no one, I prosper by my good decisions, and I hopefully learn by my bad ones. I earn a living doing what I love to do, and look forward to each and ever gig.

There are many right ways to go through life, 'one size does not fit all', and this is my way. I think I also won the life-lottery. For someone else, this would be entirely the wrong way.

My formal music education, plus what I learned from other musicians, plus what I learned for myself has made me a good enough musician, performer, arranger, MIDI sequencer to make a living doing music and nothing but music.

<< rewind << When I was in junior high school, I was in the school band, and after school I got into a rock band. We were terrible, everybody was back then.

We got hired for a school dance. There I was on stage with my best friends at the time. We were playing the hits of the day to the best of our ability and having the time of our lives. I looked up and that cute girl who never even acknowledged my existence in English class was 'making eyes' at me, and at the end of the night they paid me money. That is when I said, "This is what I want to do for the rest of my life! I'm still doing it and have no plans to retire, it's too much fun to quit.

I've played with major stars in huge halls, on cruise ships, in singles bars, in concert, in show clubs, in casinos, for yacht/country club dances, in dive bars, in private clubs for the wealthy, and just about any other place musicians gig. Furthermore, I've played a lot of songs, was treated as a peer by the stars of the day, bedded a lot of women, met a lot of great people, and I've gigged in every state east of the Mississippi and a number of them west.

Mrs. Notes and I even played by invitation in the People's Republic of China (we extended that and took a one-month vacation meandering from the Great Wall to exiting from Hong Kong).

I know others could do that without formal music education, but the skills I learned plus the talent given to me by my father allowed me to have a life of music, a life of joy, and an escape from being a wage-slave for some mega-corporation.

If I had a chance to go back and do it again, I'd do it the same way.

Life is the perfect way to spend the time of day.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Tim Smith]

Are you saying those who work a regular job are normal?  Lots of creativity there in other work besides music.

I don't see how anyone, full time musician or not doesn't have responsibilities?  How do you get away from that ?

[Notes_Norton]

"Normal" in the US and most other industrialized countries is working for someone else. Clocking in and clocking out, working regular hours and following the same schedule week after week - after year after year - until they take off the golden handcuffs and retire. By then, the retirees are often too old to travel independently all over the world.

In Florida, we targeted the adult community in 1985. So many retirees told us, "Don't wait until you retire to travel, do it while you are young."

Mrs. Notes and I are among the small percentage of people who are not normal. We work for nobody but ourselves. No unseen corporate head tells us when to work, when to take a vacation, or anything else. We are not wage-slaves.

Responsibilities? I bought a house, cars, even a sailboat, and never missed a payment. We pay our taxes, both local and federal, keep our property up, and live in a way to minimize our impact on climate change as much as we can. We have a good relationship with all the neighbors on our dead-end street, and we all watch out for each other. Mrs. Notes and I practice in the middle of the afternoon when the neighbors are mostly working, and they all know if we choose a bad time for them, they can give us a call, and we'll do it later. After all, we don't punch a clock. Nobody has ever called, but they know they can.

My main responsibilities are to both the people who hire us and to the audience. I take these responsibilities seriously.

I have never either missed or arrived late for a gig in my life. The people who hire us, the venue, the bartenders, the waiters/waitresses, and everybody else depends on our showing up to make their income for the night. In the early days, I played with a fever of 104. I've since hardened my immune system, and rarely get sick at all.

Can you imagine calling bridezilla on the day of the wedding, and saying, "We can't show up today because the sax player is calling in sick." Or how about a club owner with a few hundred people wanting to drink and dance all night? Nope, the show must go on when you are in this business. My mother understood, when my father died, she checked my schedule before deciding what day the funeral would be. She understood my commitment to the gig, and the fact that if I didn't show up, that entertainment purchaser would probably never hire is again, and word of mouth among the others would seriously harm my career.

The audience is our other responsibility. They deserve for us to play the best we can, whether there are 10 or 10,000 people present. We need to read the audience, play what they want when they require it, pace them through the gig, and entertain them for what is appropriate for that particular gig. We use our experience and our brains and do everything in our power to give them the best experience for the duration of our gig.

In addition, we have a responsibility not to harm the audience, so we do pre-gig sound check with a calibrated SPL meter and make sure the seats closest to the band are not over 85dba (slow response). If they ask us to crank it up, it's their responsibility, not ours.

Mrs. Notes and I chose not to have children or pets. To pursue our lifestyle would be unfair to them. Irregular hours, and sometimes working out of town; For example, a 3 week cruise ship gig with options lasted 3 years for us until we decided to give notice and get back on land. We couldn't bring up kids like that, and it would be cruel to a cat or a dog.

We've been to 49 US States, most of Canada and down to Latin America, plenty of Caribbean Islands, Europe, Asia, and Africa and have done our best to not be the demanding 'ugly American' but instead an example of friendly good will. Not only that, but we've been invited back to stay in people's homes all over the world. Why? Because we got out of the tourist zones, navigated their transportation systems, and met the people on their own terms as a friendly traveler (not as a demanding tourist). That's a responsibility to our country.

So tell me, what responsibilities am I not fulfilling? Am I missing something?

I'm of the age where most people retire. I have no plans to retire. If Tony Bennett and Willie Nelson can do it in their advanced years, so can I. Why? Because I really love what I do. I can't think of anything I'd rather do than get up on stage, get into that place where there is no space, no time, no me, and let the music flow through me until the gig ends, and it almost always ends too soon. Well, I can think of one thing, but I can't say that here

I wake up in the morning, go to sleep at night, and in between, I do what I want to do and what I love to do. To me, that's the definition of success. I won the life-lottery. And to keep on topic, both my music education and the talent I inherited are the reason why I can do what I do.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[RobertWS]

Life IS good.

Especially at this time...we are at the peak of civilization.  (Just ignore the pessimists and don't watch TV!).

 

[craigb]

Why have 3D when we can have 5D?

[Tim Smith]

Hey Notes,

I had no intent to get into a discussion about which is better or worse, I was just making the point that probably resonates with a lot of people. We do other things and we are happy with that life as well.

You still have to be somewhere to get paid like the rest of us, so in a sense you are a slave to the dollar as well. You don't see it that way because you really seem to like what you do. I don't see how you could enjoy having a 104 fever and making the gig but I digress. It's beginning to sound like any other job to me.

I guess I am very fortunate at my job. If I get sick I still get paid. I have lots of paid vacation time and great health benefits. My arrival and departure times are  not on any kind of a time clock. I am fairly punctual, so I show up at an agreed on time. I have a retirement account here that is building up rather nicely after 20 years. My home is paid off. I travel if I want to travel. I live where I wanted to live. I guess I don't see myself as a 'wage slave' at all. I can walk out the door any time I want to and never come back or they can let me go and I'll find something else to do. No worries  From your perspective it might look like a 20 year gig that never stopped. My supervisor is hands off because he can trust me to do the job.

I can see the beauty in having some structure. I work Mon-Fri and have my weekends off. No one ever approaches me about a shift or hours change. If I need another day during the week I take it off. I don't need to think about going somewhere new because I mostly always go to the same place. I went yesterday to get a medical test and no one asks any questions. They know I don't abuse the system. My pay is regular like clockwork. I never need to worry if someone is going to pay me or not.

No situation is ever perfect, but this has worked well for me. Working in the government sector means it's one of the last places to lay anyone off in my line of work.

My point here being, it can be a good thing either way. I can go home and play in music after dinner or take all day on a Saturday to play if I so desire. I can come home on week nights and play in music all evening.

I have a wonderful wife as well( I should have probably put that first on the list) she is really amazing. 

And you need people like us because we are the ones who go to the places musicians play and buy tickets to hear full time musicians

[Notes_Norton]

There is more than one right way to go through life.

I'm glad you are also having a wonderful life.

BTW, I not only seem to like what I do, I love what I do, it's the most fun I can have with my clothes on

And to keep on topic, music education helped me get here.

Notes ♫

[bitflipper]

Self-taught guy here. We often underestimate how much self-education just seeps into our subconscious, simply by listening to music.

Lennon and McCartney weren't formally trained, but musicologists still analyze their compositions. They drew from a rich tradition of English popular music, threw in some American influences, and mixed them up with a heavy dose of creativity. But would they have accomplished what they did without also leveraging the knowledge of the "fifth Beatle", a formally-trained composer and multi-instrumentalist?

Personally, I just know enough buzzwords to use as incantations whenever my bandmates question my wisdom. Don't like my arrangement? Hemidemisemiquaver! Mixolydian! Diminished Seventh! Grovel, lowly acolyte!

[Tim Smith]

Some people are doing while others are analyzing how to do- Like these guys. You can tell they we having a lot of fun. Either that or pumped up on coke. Of one thing we can be sure they are gifted musicians. We don't see how much practice went into this. The casual way they all just walked in and played means it was natural to them. Not, "now let's see here what are we going to do now?"

Practice is practice. Doesn't has nothing to do with sitting in  an institution  and reading about it.

 

[craigb]

I'm mostly self-taught (and never got close to finishing what I would consider basic knowledge!), but I did have some lessons from the guy who lived a couple blocks away (when he wasn't sleeping in his car).  One Craig Goldy who's most well known for playing in Giuffria and Dio (Ronnie was his Godfather).  Craig had a tough life before making it big.

I also hung out a few times with the guy Tim just posted above, but he never knew I could even spell guitar since we mostly talked about non-music stuff like the Netherlands (my Mom is 100% Dutch and we have a lot of family named Van Heulen).  We also discussed golf and how he used to play piano.