Problem - reassigning sustain pedal to function as expression

[Ben Karlsson]

Hi, y'all. This is my first post here. Was humbly hoping to find some help here regarding a MIDI keyboard problem of mine.

I'm not very familiar with all this as I am first and foremost a guitarist, but I'm such a bloody sucker for Hammond organs... But anyway, here's the issue:
I recently bought a sustain pedal I was hoping to use both as a sustain pedal and/or expression pedal (or at least as a toggle between chorale and tremolo for the rotary cab in SampleTank 4) and it works - unfortunately simultaneously. Is there a way to "unassign", if you will, the sustain function until I want it active again? 

I got it working as a toggle switch by using the "MIDI Learn" function appearing as an option when rightclicking the little selector switch at the bottom of the "Rotary" effect strip, and then engaging my sustain pedal.

Gear:

MIDI keyboard: Evolution MK-36 1C by M-Audio

Sustain pedal: Supreme SSP-2 (couldn't find any decent info about it online), but it's very simple. Connects with a 1/4" plug and has a polarity switch. Although I guess they are quite universal the two switchable modes are marked with Yamaha and Casio respectively.

PC/software specs: latest version, standard free edition of Sonar if that matters, W10, Sampletank 4 free version, with the included Hammond-type organ.

Most grateful for any advice or tips, so thanks in advance!

/Ben

[Byron Dickens]

I don't think that is going to work. Sustain pedals are more like an on/ off switch and expression pedals are continuously variable.

[David Baay]

As bdickens said most sustain pedals are just on-off switches. There are sustain pedals that produce continuous output, but it's not likely your inexpensive pedal does, so using it to control Expression is not going to happen.

It's also unlikely that your keyboard can be configured not to generate C64  (sustain) messages in response to the switching of the Sustain pedal input., but you can keep those messages from being sent to the synth by putting the Event Filter MIDI FX in the bin of the MIDI track (split the Instrument track if necessary to access the MIDI FX bin), and setting it to filter out CC64.

The free MIDI 'SustainFix'  MFX from TenCrazy may also have an option to do this (not sure, and don't have it installed on this machine). If it does, I would recommend it over the Event Filter which I have found to be a bit wonky in the past (causing delayed note events even when not filtering notes).

https://tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/ 

EDIT: Checked the SustainFix MFX on my main DAW, and it does not have an option to block CC64.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by David Baay

[scook]

2 minutes ago, David Baay said:

but you can keep those messages from being sent to the synth by putting the Event Filter MIDI FX in the bin of the MIDI track (split the Instrument track if necessary to access the MIDI FX bin), and setting it to filter out CC64.

It is not necessary to split the instrument track. The MIDI FX rack for an instrument track may be accessed using the MIDI tab on the track inspector

 

[David Baay]

32 minutes ago, scook said:

It is not necessary to split the instrument track. The MIDI FX rack for an instrument track may be accessed using the MIDI tab on the track inspector

Yeah, you would think, but the MIDI tab doesn't display an MFX bin as your screenshot shows... unless I'm missing something?

[scook]

14 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Yeah, you would think, but the MIDI tab doesn't display an MFX bin as your screenshot shows... unless I'm missing something?

The image above shows the MFX Quantize loaded in the MIDI FX rack on the left below the gain knob and above the Channel drop down.

It is easier to see in this image I just made from 2022.02 EA build 27

[David Baay]

Ah, so it  is.

[Ben Karlsson]

A big thanks to all of you for your replies, really appreciate it! 

I was suspecting with the equipment I have it would be difficult to get the sustain pedal to act like an expression pedal, in the truest sense, so thanks for clarifying that.

However, you mention that my pedal probably isn't capable of producing continuous output and if 'continous output' means what I think it does, then no, it cannot. So, continous output - am I right to guess that's the kind of output type that would be found on most foot rocker pedals?  
If such is the case, then I fear I might've worded what I wanted to achieve inadequately (non-native English speaker) and apologize for that, if so.
Not trying to insult or undermine anyone's intelligence, just wanna clarify: I actually want my sustain pedal to function as a ramping switch (with hold operation); push down - cab spins up, release - cab slows down.
 

On 2/16/2022 at 2:24 AM, David Baay said:

but you can keep those messages from being sent to the synth by putting the Event Filter MIDI FX in the bin of the MIDI track (split the Instrument track if necessary to access the MIDI FX bin), and setting it to filter out CC64.

This intrigues me, gonna try setting that up tonight. I'll write back again if I can't make it work if that's OK?

Best regards,
/Ben

[David Baay]

3 hours ago, Ben Karlsson said:

I actually want my sustain pedal to function as a ramping switch (with hold operation); push down - cab spins up, release - cab slows down.

To be more precise about 'continuous output', it's really variable resistance of a potentiometer in the pedal that is converted to a digital value by an A/D circuit in the keyboard/controller, and that digital value is in turn used to generate MIDI controller messages. A standard switch-style pedal can only present two resistance values - infinite when it's open, and something near zero when it's closed. (Different pedal and controller brands use different conventions for which pedal position is open, and whether open or closed generates 0 or 127, but that's beside the point.) The important thing to understand is that the keyboard/controller will only generate 0 or 127 from a switching pedal, so you would only be able to select min and max cabinet speeds.

3 hours ago, Ben Karlsson said:

This intrigues me, gonna try setting that up tonight. I'll write back again if I can't make it work if that's OK?

The trick is to drag the min and max histogram sliders for the CC number past each other in the MFX UI to create a 'hole in the middle" that excludes CC64.  Understand the MFX operate on the output of the track so this will not prevent CC64 from being recorded but will prevent it from being echoed or sent on playback from that track.

HOWEVER... I just realized your synth needs to see these messages in order for the 'learned' function to work. So what you probably need to do is use a MIDI Mapper MFX to change the controller message to something to which the synth doesn't already respond, and have the rotary function 'learn' that controller. Actually, it's likely that the rotary function is already programmed to respond to some specific controller by default that you can map to.

I forget whether a mapper is bundled with Cakewalk. If not, I think Tencrazy has one, and other free ones are probably also available.

Edited February 17, 2022 by David Baay

[Ben Karlsson]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:33 PM, David Baay said:

The trick is to drag the min and max histogram sliders for the CC number past each other in the MFX UI to create a 'hole in the middle" that excludes CC64.  Understand the MFX operate on the output of the track so this will not prevent CC64 from being recorded but will prevent it from being echoed or sent on playback from that track.

Thanks again for your elaborated replies. Unfortunately, it seems despite clear instructions I'm too thickheaded to understand. So, exactly how are the two histogram sliders supposed to be set? I have the MFX Quantizer applied to my Sampletank 4 instrument track. So, the sliders I'm supposed to be fiddling with are the ones my screenshot below shows or am I in the wrong area? If it's not too much of a hassle for you I'd be extremely grateful for a pick of how it's meant to be set!

On 2/17/2022 at 7:33 PM, David Baay said:

HOWEVER... I just realized your synth needs to see these messages in order for the 'learned' function to work. So what you probably need to do is use a MIDI Mapper MFX to change the controller message to something to which the synth doesn't already respond, and have the rotary function 'learn' that controller.

Sweet lord, I think the state of my brain just changed from solid into liquid. So, from the start of the chain am I right to assume this order: Sustain pedal (sending CC64 right) > MIDI keyboard (sending former mentioned CC64.. right?) > DAW > MIDI Mapper MFX > do some computing magic tricks turning sustain pedal (CC64 still.. right?) into something else before going into Sa- actually, I don't think I'm able to grasp any of this. 
 

[David Baay]

You're in the right place with the event filter. You don't need to change the Value sliders, it should remain all yellow to pass other controllers. The CC# should just have a single black bar in the center with both numbers reading 64. The programming is a little buggy, and can make it hard to get right.

You also have the second part right except that the pedal doesn't generate MIDI messages, it just switches the keyboard input open and closed; the keyboard generates the messages.

 

 

[Byron Dickens]

Just get a proper expression pedal and be done with it.

[David Baay]

54 minutes ago, bdickens said:

Just get a proper expression pedal and be done with it.

I suspect the keyboard does not have an input that supports a continuous pedal.

[Ben Karlsson]

On 2/23/2022 at 3:35 PM, bdickens said:

Just get a proper expression pedal and be done with it.

Just like David's already replied, my keyboard lacks that input. Hell, even if it did have an input for expression pedals I think I'd prefer this on/off solution anyway, being new to keyboard instruments. Got my hands full (pun intended) just putting my fingers on the right keys.

David, I had a look at TenCrazy's various plugins, but looking at the descriptions of those various plugins had me confused which one I'm supposed to get. Suspect it's the one called "CC Map", just wanted to double check with you first. 

[David Baay]

Yes, CC Map. My mistake for confusing the issue with all the talk about blocking CC64 entirely. i haven't ever actually had a need to use CC Map, but I assume it's fairly straightforward.