Waves CR8 Sampler

[PavlovsCat]

16 hours ago, Fleer said:

Troo. But it’s WUP. And WUP is unsavory. 

I broke character for my faux "I support WUP " position (a view no one who's not an influencer shilling for Waves has) to give,  what I think,  is a pretty thorough analysis of why WUP is problematic (above). Take note, @Fleer ! I wish everyone could understand all of this before we they purchased from Waves, then they could make an informed decision if they want to deal with Waves Update Plan, which is a less than transparent scheme that, in many ways, is their substitute for q subscription model that's a lot less honest than using a subscription model upfront. Most consumers new to Waves don't understand what they're getting into before their first purchase; they think Waves operates like other, non subscription model plugin developers. Just read the more high traffic music forum posts. 

[husker]

Adobe is a subscription - you lose access to the program if you stop paying.

Waves is not a subscription - you can continue to use the plugin if you do not pay WUP.    What Waves sells is a support/maintenance plan - if you have issues or want the newest version, you pay for the year.  All of this is standard business practice in the IT world.  It is just not common in the plugin world.

If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up.   Waves is not a subscription.

Edited February 17, 2022 by husker

[PavlovsCat]

21 minutes ago, husker said:

Adobe is a subscription - you lose access to the program if you stop paying.

Waves is not a subscription - you can continue to use the plugin if you do not pay WUP.    What Waves sells is a support/maintenance plan - if you have issues or want the newest version, you pay for the year.  All of this is standard business practice in the IT world.  It is just not common in the plugin world.

If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up.   Waves is not a subscription.

Come on, one guy misquoted me and now it's turned into the misquote. I never wrote that it's a subscription model,  I wrote that there are similarities, which is factual. I'm a business strategist and business writer.  Waves absolutely does take elements of the subscription model and apply it to the Waves Update Plan. Specifically,  products and updates only apply for one year after purchase and to maintain a second installation the buyer must pay a renewable annual fee. If the buyer fails to pay the annual fee the second installation no longer works to quote you "If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up.   Waves is not a subscription." You actually do lose access to the second installation if you don't pay for the annual Waves Update Plan. Consequently,  that aspect of the Waves Update Plan, the second installation,  is essentially a subscription model, while the software only receiving updates and support for year one unless the buyer pays for an annual renewal is SIMILAR to a subscription model. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[husker]

4 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

Come on, one guy misquoted me and now it's turned into the misquote. I never wrote that it's a subscription model,  I wrote that there are similarities, which is factual. I'm a business strategist and business writer.  Waves absolutely does take elements of the subscription model and apply it to the Waves Update Plan. Specifically,  products and updates only apply for one year after purchase and to maintain a second installation the buyer must pay a renewable annual fee. If the buyer fails to pay the annual fee the second installation no longer works to quote you "If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up.   Waves is not a subscription." You actually do lose access to the second installation if you don't pay for the annual Waves Update Plan. Consequently,  that aspect of the Waves Update Plan, the second installation,  is essentially a subscription model, while the software only receiving updates and support for year one unless the buyer pays for an annual renewal is SIMILAR to a subscription model. 

I wasn't referring to you, which is why I didn't quote you.   It is just a misnomer out there in home music production land that WUP is a subscription.  

[PavlovsCat]

1 hour ago, husker said:

I wasn't referring to you, which is why I didn't quote you.   It is just a misnomer out there in home music production land that WUP is a subscription.  

Okay. But you do see how people might find Waves Update Plan to be basically a subscription plan? Because it really is a less than straightforward way to do what is basically a subscription plan. I find it borderline deceptive that they sell their software without informing customers upfront.  I see that you and the other person that posted in defense of WUP take the position that it's worked for years for you, which is great-- and it's the same for me -- but what about those customers who didn't have that experience.  What if you bought 20 new Waves plugins on sale not understanding any of this and on day 366, you get an OS update and your Waves plugins no longer work? You have two options,  you can pay for WUP, which actually is a type of subscription plan, or you can repurchase every plugin again. Now, if you have installed those plugins on a second computer,  you must keep renewing your WUP to keep them working, which was how you described a subscription model (which is not completely accurate,  as you that mostly applies to the software as a service subscription model and there are many other types of subscriptions, but I suppose it's close enough for this conversation). 

Edited February 17, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[husker]

6 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

 I see that you and the other person that posted in defense of WUP take the position that it's worked for years for you, which is great-- and it's the same for me

I don't defend WUP, I just want to make it a point that it is not a subscription.  That is all.

I also don't recall ever stating I've never had problems with Waves (though it is true), so you may have me confused with another poster.  

[PavlovsCat]

4 hours ago, husker said:

I don't defend WUP, I just want to make it a point that it is not a subscription.  That is all.

I also don't recall ever stating I've never had problems with Waves (though it is true), so you may have me confused with another poster.  

Too late. sides are drawn! Just kidding. It's all good. But I think this topic --that is Waves marketing practices regarding their software -- is quite significant.  Don't take my seriousness in discussing Waves practices personally. I used to write on marketing strategies (and may do so in the future,  but from a more humorous perspective), so I easily analyze this stuff pretty intensely. 

I didn't confuse you with another poster. I was merely stating that your good opinion of Waves practice is almost certainly conditional on your plugins working on the 366th day when the updates and support stop. I suspect that if EVERY Waves plugin you own stopped working on the 366th day -- you might feel differently about the WUP you were required to purchase to get them working again. Personally, I own around 50 Waves plugins and I purchased probably the first twenty without even understanding what WUP was and I'm a marketing and strategy professional with a long background in the technology and software who has consulted to more than two dozen companies in this space.  So technically, on a pure strategy, factual level, Waves Update Plan absolutely incorporates elements from the subscription model, which is not exclusively the way Adobe implements it, BTW. My major issue isn't with subscription models or Waves having their bastardized subscription model, it's their lack of clarity in marketing their software that they don't disclose these practices upfront, before a consumer makes a purchase. And of course, they're not going to start doing that because it will absolutely result in a lot of people abandoning the sale, that is, not completing a purchase. Any purchases I've made since I've understood WUP is not an issue to me. I'm thinking in terms of ethical marketing practices not my personal scenario, especially now that I am knowledgeable on WUP. 

@husker I suppose to make clear the real issue of concern, the BIG QUESTIION IS: Did you understand Waves Update Plan before you made your initial purchase or did you only learn about how it work afterwards -- that is, did you only learn after your purchase that you were only getting software with updates and support for one year -- and that the only way to extend that was to purchase another year plan -- and the only way to get that software to run and continue running on a second machine is to purchase an additional one year plan and the day that plan is over, the second machine's license is over and it stops working? You wrote that you don't think WUP is anything like a subscription model, but particularly when it comes to a customer's installation on a second machine, which is identical to a subscription model. You had written that "If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up. ," and that is exactly what occurs on the second installation. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[Doug Rintoul]

Not sure if I should throw this into the mix, but you can run your plugins on multiple machines if you move your licenses to a USB stick. You won't be able to run them simultaneously and you may be hooped if your USB stick goes belly up or you loose it, but it is an option.

[husker]

3 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

I didn't confuse you with another poster. I was merely stating that your good opinion of Waves practice ....

Again, I am not defending Waves or saying I have a good or bad opinion of Waves practice.  I'm not giving any opinions on Waves.  Don't misinterpret my simple goal of stating that WUP is not a subscription.    I have around 25 years of experience in IT, and one of my responsibilities is overseeing the management and maintenance of around 700 different software contracts and licensing for for our organization.   Waves version of maintenance is used by around 95% of these contracts - the others are true subscriptions like Office 365-Adobe-Box-Salesforce etc etc.  What Waves does is simply not common in the plugin world, but it is everywhere else.  For the last time, I am not saying their practice is good, bad, or indifferent.  People can make up their own minds.  I am merely stating that WUP is not a subscription.

To answer your question, yes I was fully aware. 

 

[abacab]

Bottom line, a subscription-only license means exactly what @huskersaid, if you stop paying you lose access to the program.

On the other hand, a perpetual license means that you can use the program for as long as it works on your computer, without paying another dime. Waves licenses are perpetual. A perpetual license typically doesn't include any upgrades or support beyond a stated initial term, at the discretion of the publisher.  Some may provide free upgrades and/or or support, but that is not guaranteed by a license for the purchased version. Again, that is at the sole discretion of the publisher.

Waves WUP is strictly a support agreement. Support agreements and fees are extras that the end user enters into voluntarily. An individual, or the organization that they represent, has to decide for themselves if there is any worthwhile benefit to the cost.

[dubdisciple]

6 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

Come on, one guy misquoted me and now it's turned into the misquote. I never wrote that it's a subscription model,  I wrote that there are similarities, which is factual. I'm a business strategist and business writer.  Waves absolutely does take elements of the subscription model and apply it to the Waves Update Plan. Specifically,  products and updates only apply for one year after purchase and to maintain a second installation the buyer must pay a renewable annual fee. If the buyer fails to pay the annual fee the second installation no longer works to quote you "If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up.   Waves is not a subscription." You actually do lose access to the second installation if you don't pay for the annual Waves Update Plan. Consequently,  that aspect of the Waves Update Plan, the second installation,  is essentially a subscription model, while the software only receiving updates and support for year one unless the buyer pays for an annual renewal is SIMILAR to a subscription model. 

I didn't misquote you. I didn't quote you at all or even paraphrase . if you are going to disagree, cool, but pleas do not ever lie on me again. My literal words were that I didn't agree with the comparison which you responded by defending that  comparison. That is your right to do, but no quoting or misquoting was involved so please refrain from telling untruths to rationalize your argument with another.

[PavlovsCat]

3 minutes ago, abacab said:

Bottom line, a subscription-only license means exactly what @huskersaid, if you stop paying you lose access to the program.

On the other hand, a perpetual license means that you can use the program for as long as it works on your computer, without paying another dime. Waves licenses are perpetual. A perpetual license typically doesn't include any upgrades or support beyond a stated initial term, at the discretion of the publisher.  Some may provide free upgrades and/or or support, but that is not guaranteed by a license for the purchased version. Again, that is at the sole discretion of the publisher.

Waves WUP is strictly a support agreement. Support agreements and fees are extras that the end user enters into voluntarily. An individual, or the organization that they represent, has to decide for themselves if there is any worthwhile benefit to the cost.

The additional license, according to their legal copy, ceases to work when the WUP period ends.  I don't actually own any second licenses, I just know that from reading their copy. 

[abacab]

Just now, PavlovsCat said:

The additional license, according to their legal copy, ceases to work when the WUP period ends.  I don't actually own any second licenses, I just know that from reading their copy. 

Please don't quote me with an irrelevant comment. I said nothing about the 2nd seat license.

[PavlovsCat]

4 hours ago, abacab said:

Please don't quote me with an irrelevant comment. I said nothing about the 2nd seat license.

You were responding to what I wrote and that second license was an essential component of my comparison, not an "irrelevant comment." 

I was trying to explain why I  wrote as you and some others are really focused on the small details of a subscription plan -- and I didn't mean the comparison to be a detailed point by point comparison with a subscription plan, but that the WUP contains some major similarities with a subscription plan -- and I'm not attacking the subscription model. My issue is entirely about Waves lack of full upfront disclosure about WUP prior to a purchase and the second license is essential to my point because the second license is virtually identical to a subscription model -- to the point Husker made, a subscription model means the software stops working when the paid period is over (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the jest of it) -- and that is exactly how that second license, the installation on a second machine, works with WUP.

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[Fleer]

Group hug !

[PavlovsCat]

4 hours ago, dubdisciple said:

I didn't misquote you. I didn't quote you at all or even paraphrase . if you are going to disagree, cool, but pleas do not ever lie on me again. My literal words were that I didn't agree with the comparison which you responded by defending that  comparison. That is your right to do, but no quoting or misquoting was involved so please refrain from telling untruths to rationalize your argument with another.

First, wow, this has become a pile on. Can you not engage in calling others names like liar? You clearly posted referring to my statement that Waves WUP was like a backhanded way to do something very much like a subscription model and that the second license could rightfully be termed a subscription model.  I'm a strategist.  I've done a lot of writing and thinking about strategy and I find Waves practice problematic and I  was doing my best to explain why. You referenced my statement using the phrase "subscription model" in your post following my post. State what you like now and name call, but anyone who sees your post can see that you were clearly referencing my post and used the phrase "subscription model" that I used in my post -- that's a quote. That's  a simple fact. But in any event,  there's no need for personal attacks. I absolutely didn't state anything false. There's no justification for your attacks.  You responded to my post and I  referenced you responding to my comment. It shouldn't get to the point of you making personal attacks and your over the top slanderous statement claiming I lied. Find the quote I made that you are proclaiming is a lie and repost it. .Clearly, what occurred is that  when you posted your comment disagreeing with my comment and I responded, you became enraged and turned to a baseless character attack on me -- something I never expected when I made my comment, to be very candid --, which is incredibly out of line and against forum policy and it doesn't seem that you are going to stop with your personal attacks.  

This was your post referencing my post using the comparison to a subscription model (I added the emphasis for you and others to see your using the exact phrase from my comment you were referring to with the term "subscription model"; your doing that is literally technically considered quoting me -- whether or not you use quotes, that is what I was referring to when I referred to your post, although it was clumsy grammar on my part to say you were misquoting me; I was on my phone, I meant that you misunderstood what I wrote when you quoted the phrase "subscription model" -- that's all I meant, and I really don't see how you have come at me with such incredible vitriol over this, it's really over the top): 

"WUP is annoying but subscription model comparison is not quite right.  Waves plugins work fine for years without paying WUP. I used RBass for 5 years without paying. Most subscription models stop working when you stop paying.  "

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat
grammar

[PavlovsCat]

8 minutes ago, Fleer said:

Group hug !

From now on I know,  controversial topics include politics,  religion, vaccines, masks...and WUP.  

[dubdisciple]

1 minute ago, PavlovsCat said:

First, wow. Can you not engage in calling others names like liar. You clearly posted referring to my statement that Waves WUP was like a backhanded way to do something very much like a subscription model and that the second license could rightfully be termed a subscription model.  I'm a strategist.  I've done a lot of writing and thinking about strategy and I find Waves practice problematic and I  was doing my best to explain why. You referenced my statement using the phrase subscription model right after my post and no other post after mine made that reference, so I'm not sure who else you referred to. But in any event,  there's no need for personal attacks. I absolutely didn't state anything false, but there's no reason to make that kind of attack  and I  certainly don't wish you any ill will.  You responded to my post and I  referenced you. It shouldn't get to the point of personal attacks. 

You seem to like throwing out inflammatory statements and inaccurate ones at that and then acting like a victim. I didn't call you a name. I said you lied which is not an attack. It is an irrefutable fact. I have hostility or anger towards you. I ignored your response because it seemed clear that you wanted to argue for the sake of arguing.  I simply do not like someone saying something about me that is not true. I corrected the lie you told.  I don't mind being quoted or even if you chose to address my actual words but claiming I quoted or misquoted you is what it is. Your opinion is just that but you should expect people to not appreciate you changing their words to continue your back and forth over nothing.  

[dubdisciple]

And I don't give a fraction of a ___ what kind of strategist you claim to be. So what. An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, even if that appeal is using yourself.  Again, it's not your opinion that initiated my response. It is the fact you are doubling down on claiming I misquoted you when it is in black and white that I did not. Nowhere did I claim you said anything about WUP actually being a subscription model. I said you made a comparison. You DID indeed make a comparison.  Instead of leaving as an agree to disagree you made up some nonsense to paint yourself as misquoted and to repeat what kind of strategist you are. 

[dubdisciple]

With that said, this whole thing is silly. Just leave me out of your nonsense and we are good.