"Main outs?"

[Starship Krupa]

I'm trying to get a better understanding of signal flow and metering in Cakewalk.

In the documentation (both online and in the Ref. Guide), it refers to "Main outs."

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.15.html

What are "Main outs?" Does it mean the hardware outputs?

[Lord Tim]

I'd say it means Hardware Outs. 30+ years of documentation would definitely have some old terms still sitting around in there!

[sjoens]

??? If not obvious, process of elimination. What are you're options? 

[Starship Krupa]

Well, here's what it says:

• Kind of meter: What it measures

• Record: The level of the instrument listed as an input for the track you are monitoring—the track must be armed to enable the meter

• Playback: A playback meter measures the playback level of any pre-existing data in the track you are monitoring, either before or after the track faders, depending on what display options you choose

• Main outs: The level of the signal output by each main out.

• Buses: The level of the output signal the bus is sending back from the effects.

Here's what I have in Console View:

So I guess I can assume that the documentation means "Hardware Outputs" when it says "Main outs?"

Okay, now I'm trying to parse "The level of the signal output by each main out." Is that more "the level of the signal coming from each Hardware Output?"

And "the level of the output signal the bus is sending back from the effects?" That seems to cover only one use scenario for buses, that being effects send. I think a bus meter (if post fader) indicates the level of signal coming from the bus, whether there are FX on it or not.

I'm trying to straighten this out so I can submit it to Mr. S for amendment.

[Will.]

3 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I'm trying to get a better understanding of signal flow and metering in Cakewalk.

In the documentation (both online and in the Ref. Guide), it refers to "Main outs."

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.15.html

What are "Main outs?" Does it mean the hardware outputs?

Main Outs are the OUTPUT you use as your "MAIN OUT" such as your interface/mixer OUTPUT in your I/O.

Interface/Mixer L.

Interface/Mixer R.

Interface/Mixer S .

These are your MAIN OUTPUTS. 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Will_Kaydo

[Will.]

8 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I'm trying to get a better understanding of signal flow and metering in Cakewalk.

In the documentation (both online and in the Ref. Guide), it refers to "Main outs."

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.15.html

What are "Main outs?" Does it mean the hardware outputs?

Main Outs are the OUTPUT you use as your "MAIN OUT" such as your interface/mixer OUTPUT. 

Interface/Mixer L

Interface/Mixer R

Interface/Mixer S 

These are your MAIN OUTPUTS. 

Another EXAMPLE on the signal flow. 

Guitar > Interface Input> Pro channel> Gain> FX bin> Sends> Pan> Fader> Output. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Will_Kaydo

[sjoens]

To be precise, CbB's "Main Outs" control the output level from CbB going to your sound source but not the sound source itself, which usually has it's own controls.

In olden days, the Console View Main Outputs were actually labeled "H/W OUTS" or "MASTER". Remnants of this can be found in the Theme Editor Console View > Modules > MSR of all places. Spoiler alert: Editing these graphics will do you no good. 

[Starship Krupa]

Thanks, it looks like the current term is "Hardware Outputs." I shall alert the appropriate authorities.

On my Firepod, I have 5 stereo pairs available as outputs, and I use 4 of them. Only one is controllable by physical knob, so I'm real cozy with the controls on Cakewalk's hardware outputs.

The reason I'm digging into this is that I want to write up a tutorial covering the related topics of loudness metering plug-ins and audio export. In my first several months working with Cakewalk I had issues with getting exactly what I wanted from the audio export process (and still every couple of weeks there's someone posting that they're getting unexpected results). I wanted to understand what was going on, and a problem with that is that helpful people on the forum are best when we're presented with an ultimate goal so that we can give the person asking for help a set of steps to follow. We're not as good with "I'd like to learn more about what's happening during this process and what my different options are."

I finally got enough info to figure out that "Entire Mix" meant "what's coming from the Hardware Outs." Which alerted me to the fact that for better flexibility and control I needed to start making my audio exports from a dedicated bus rather than the "Master" bus or the output I used for driving speakers.

[Will.]

12 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Thanks, it looks like the current term is "Hardware Outputs." I shall alert the appropriate authorities.

Here's the thing. When you do . . .you need to be precise and accurate with your request of explanation to them. 

Reason: You'll need to keep this in mind as Cakewalk has a Master H/W Output Strip to not confuse things. 

 

[John Vere]

This got my curiosity about something when you mentioned about people getting different results on export. Personaly since Sonar 8.5 all my exports have always been perfect renditions of what's happening in Cakewalk. I'm always mistified by posts about this topic. There's actually one right now here. 

But the question popped into my mind was how we are told your audio interface has zero to do with export becuase it's all internal. But what about those Hardware faders? SO I just tried an experiment where I turned them down to -15 db and exported using the default I've always used which is "entire mix". The resulting file you see I dropped into You lean to analyze and sure enough the export is -15db. So the Hardware faders do matter for export. 

[Will.]

9 minutes ago, John Vere said:

". The resulting file you see I dropped into You lean to analyze and sure enough the export is -15db. So the Hardware faders do matter for export. 

True, but . . . Rethink this quick. What is the difference between teh H/W and the bus besides the independent L&R channels, faders snd that you cant add FX to it? Actually zero. Doing this on the Master Bus works exactly the same . . . ??‍♂️ 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Will_Kaydo

[John Vere]

That wasn't my point. The experiment was to see what actually would happen if you did turn these down. I don't think many people would ever touch them as they are mostly hidden from view.

But the OP was about signal flow and I was just confirming, to myself, that these are definatly the last step in the signal flow before audio is exported, not the Master bus.  

 

[sjoens]

This is because you can route tracks to a master bus or directly to hardware outputs. Busses aren't required or even needed  in a project. My interface has 2 stereo outputs as represented by 2 stereo master channels in CV.

IF you are routing all your tracks and busses to a Master bus, it's output level (dB's) should be the same as the hardware output level when set to "0".

Hardware output is basically an input gain knob for the interface, in my case, a mixer with it's own gain knob and fader which have no affect on the signal leaving CbB.

The hardware channel "MASTER" label was probably removed to alleviate confusion when using a "Master" bus.

Edited February 10, 2022 by sjoens

[David Baay]

6 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I finally got enough info to figure out that "Entire Mix" meant "what's coming from the Hardware Outs." Which alerted me to the fact that for better flexibility and control I needed to start making my audio exports from a dedicated bus rather than the "Master" bus or the output I used for driving speakers.

The thing about "Entire Mix" is that it's the sum of all hardware outs. So if you have a send to another hardware out (e.g. a headphone mix for a vocal booth), that's going to get summed into the exported file.

Assuming everything is routed to the Master bus as it should be, and Master goes to the hardware outs that drive the monitoring system you use when mixing, exporting from the Master bus is the best practice IMO. It ensures the level in the audio file matches the metered level on your Master bus and isn't affected by using the level controls on the hardware strip to control your monitoring level, I highly recommend avoiding that since this extra gain stage so easily gets out of sight and out of mind and can cause confusion later on about why what you hear from Cakewalk is not the same as from another app (or another CW project with a different setting) playing your exported master through the same monitoring system.

[user 905133]

2 hours ago, John Vere said:

That wasn't my point. The experiment was to see what actually would happen if you did turn these down. I don't think many people would ever touch them as they are mostly hidden from view. [Emphasis added]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying that because the hardware output buses might be hidden in some default configurations/templates/workspaces, unless users specifically unhide them, those users wouldn't even consider them as part of the signal flow.  Not being pedantic, just trying to identify a possible source of misunderstanding when someone reads "main output" [or a similar phrase].

For as long as I can remember I have always enabled the visibility of my hardware outputs in the Console, but I can imagine that many users don't (or don't know to make them visible). 

22 minutes ago, David Baay said:

The thing about "Entire Mix" is that it's the sum of all hardware outs. So if you have a send to another hardware out (e.g. a headphone mix for a vocal booth), that's going to get summed into the exported file.

Thank you for this point!!!  My current audio/midi interface has several outputs, but I only use one L/R pair. However, I have been thinking of a setup where I use some of the others.  For my own convenience, I have given the hardware bus for the pair the friendly name "Main Output."  I will rethink that if and when I make use of the others.  

Personally, I think in light of the potential confusion brought out by the original post both John's and David's points are important for understanding how to best use Cakewalk.

 

[John Vere]

Ya I didn’t elaborate because I figured everyone involved in this thread understands this stuff pretty clearly. 
I have never had to adjust my Hardware outputs and for me they are always hidden.
Actually if you load a basic template and default workspace I think even the master buss is always hidden.
There’s been plenty of newbies asking where to find it. 
I was wondering why the default in export is always the Hardware and not the Master but I guess as said people might not use busses. 
In my case it’s not an issue as I analyze my master buss and always analyze the exported file as well. There never a difference. 
But if people don’t understand how signal flow works and they are not even aware they have a master those exports might be wrong. 
Example the habit of always muting your master buss to make sure everything is routed there. 
Then the scenario where someone forgets to assign their tracks correctly and some tracks are going directly to the Hardware outputs. Those are now totally bypassing any limiters on the master buss Guess why I know this ?

[sjoens]

So no one finds the default bus arrangement odd or confusing? Most hardware mixers have the Master Bus and/or Main Faders to the far right. Sonar/CbB puts the Main Outs to the far right but the Master Bus to the far left of the bus array. This never made sense to me and seems confusing when trying to visualize the signal path.

[Lord Tim]

The reason for that is the Master Bus is a user created bus, and appears alongside any other busses you create (eg: reverb send, delay, etc), and then you have all of the hardware outputs at the very end. Typically you'd have your Master Bus feeding into a hardware out, so that makes sense.

[Will.]

3 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

The reason for that is the Master Bus is a user created bus, and appears alongside any other busses you create (eg: reverb send, delay, etc), and then you have all of the hardware outputs at the very end. Typically you'd have your Master Bus feeding into a hardware out, so that makes sense.

But no other DAW has it. 

[Lord Tim]

5 minutes ago, Will_Kaydo said:

But no other DAW has it. 

So?

You can show or hide what you like in the console view to look as much or as little like other DAWs. Every DAW has something other DAWs don't have.

[Will.]

5 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

So?

You can show or hide what you like in the console view to look as much or as little like other DAWs. Every DAW has something other DAWs don't have.

I think you're missing the point. The H/W faders is not needed if and when you can change any bus to the Main Outs and Interface Outs. 

It might work with a Digital mixer or like the ICON mixer controller maybe. I don't own a digital mixer to test, but I have have access to the ICON which I can test next week. Even then, I don't see the reason for it. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Will_Kaydo