Byron Dickens Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 43 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said: You're completely misunderstanding the concept of free speech rights. Free speech rights refer to the freedom of citizens to express views free from government prosecution for that speech. It has nothing to do with private business or boycotts which are indicative of a democracy. Furthermore, most thinkers on this topic have never advocated free speech means protecting private individuals from combating commercial disinformation. No, I'm not misunderstanding a damn thing. I understand better than most that the Bill of Rights places limits on the Government and not on private individuals. I also understand, apparently better than most, that this stuff is so deeply ingrained into our culture that is generally considered bad form for private entities to interfere with people's exercise of those rights. At least it used to be. You know, like if you don't like my book, don't read it. If you don't like my podcast, don't listen to it. If you don't like my TV show, don't watch it. And my point still stands: The proper way to combat misinformation is not by suppressing it, but by disseminating the truth. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane_B. Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 My dad is 84. He has COPD and is overweight. When this started ... not now with the weak strain ... he never left his apartment during lockdown except to go get food. No contact with anyone for months. He tried to registered to get a shot but the elderly were on a long waiting list in NJ at the time and couldn't even get scheduled. He got a cold and couldn't shake it but it was no big deal. His landlord lived in the same building and went around to everyone's apartment one day to tell them he had covid and they had to go get tested. My dad tested positive. 84 in poor health unvaccinated and no symptoms other than a slight cold. They forced him to stay in the hospital 7 days on IV drugs and forced him to get vaccinated before he could leave. Fast forward to 1 month ago my best friend who is 74 was rear ended by a truck and taken to the hospital with severe back and neck injuries. In the process of starting a lawsuit his lawyer got the ER medical records. The official diagnosis ... "Symptoms Covid related". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fwrend Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) There is stupidity and misinformation from both sides of this topic from laypeople to medical professionals. There are also FACTS that support both sides. However, you're naive if you think big corporations and governments are without improper and unethical motivations that can and do influence their decisions and PR. That being said, this is really NOT worth damaging relationships with friends, family, and each other. I have many nurses and doctors in my family including my wife, daughter, sister, nieces, etc. Interestingly, the majority are not vax'd. Do we all agree on everything? Seldom. Do I always defer to their recommendations? Mostly. However, it's ultimately my decision. We (my immediate family) are not vax'd and don't plan to be. We've all had Covid, wear a mask when required, when around the vulnerable, and adhere to proper personal care and hygiene. The vax'd can and do get Covid. The vax'd can and do spread Covid. Covid is not going to go away and while they may someday (God-willing) come up with a proper vaccine that does what other vaccines do and are intended to do, I personally don't think that time is now. Nor do I think I should be cancelled/censored for that view. I've had a lot of loss in my lifetime (a few recently with but not necessarily from Covid). All five of my wife's patients last night had Covid - both vax'd and unvax'd. She's cared for more Covid patients than she can count in three states over the last two years. I value her knowledge and attention to truth. However, neither of us REQUIRE of the other a particular treatment. Our decisions are based on gathered facts, medical knowledge, as well as religious beliefs. One size does not fit all and no government should have the ability to force unwilling participants to be injected without their consent. EDIT: I know this has drifted a bit off topic so I must say that Freedom doesn't come all wrapped up in a neat and tidy package. It is a two-edged sword giving an individual the right to live and speak as they desire to a healthy and safe extent but also gives those of differing views that same right. Love y'all! Edited January 27, 2022 by Fwrend 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) I'm not going to argue with people not able to understand the fundamental issues or able to engage intelligently and in a civil manner. I'll just make a final point. The problem that Young has isn't about someone's right to free speech. His issue is with commercial interests profiting from actively engaging in disseminating disinformation. Young simply took a stand that he doesn't want to affiliate with an organization doing that. Several years ago a popular news network tried to recruit me to be a commentator on their network. I refused them. Not merely because they're a hyper-partisan network but because they profit off of spreading disinformation and exploit and further hateful biases of their viewers (research makes it easy to appeal to thus group using those biases; it's 24/7 confirmation bias manipulating q poorly educated viewers and I won't be part of that), bogoted tropes and racial and cultural division to their non-college educated audience that eats that stuff up (I grew up working class and despise billionaires or anyone with power / a voice manipulating this group). I've taken money for speaking engagements for groups that are on the same side as them politically, but my line in the sand is organizations that willfully engage in disinformation. So I greatly respect Young. You don't have to agree with the guy's politics to respect that this is someone who doesn't want to be affiliated with an organization that actively engages in and greatly profits from the dissemination of disinformation. He made a decision that will cost him 60% of his annual income. IMO, that's character. Regardless of whether or not you share Young's views on anything else, that is character and I think that any person of integrity can respect that. That's the end of this thread for me. Try to listen to each other and show respect. We can disagree and still respect one another. Otherwise, there's no point to having a discussion. Edited January 28, 2022 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fwrend Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) DELETED Edited January 28, 2022 by Fwrend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, bdickens said: Let me tell you a little story. Couple of weeks ago I got sick. Once every 2 or 3 years I get sick, and it's always the same pattern. I'll start to get unusually tired and I'll Wonder to myself, after a few days, whether I'm starting to get sick or not. Then I'll collapse from exhaustion and spend the next two or three days in bed utterly exhausted with a fever, cough and a runny nose. So, couple of weeks ago I got sick with a exact same pattern. As coincidence would have it, I had a doctor's appointment scheduled a few days away. And again, as coincidence would have it, that was the same third day when I was back up and feeling about 80 or 90% better. So because I had had the sniffles, they did the whole hazmat routine and had me tested. I was pretty sure that the test would come back negative because 1: it was the exact same pattern that happens every time I get sick. 2: I've already been vaccinated. 3: there is so many other symptoms of the Kung flu that I didn't have. 4: I was already feeling much better. Well wouldn't you know it, my test results came back positive. I had the Kung flu! Around this same time frame, a coworker of mine got tested even though he had zero symptoms whatsoever because a member of his household who had had the sniffles for a couple of days came back positive. And wouldn't you know it, the Kung flu! Just in case you've forgotten, he had exactly zero symptoms. Besides these two little pieces of anecdotal evidence, there's there's all kinds of reports of vaccinated people getting it, vaccinated people dying from it as well as unvaccinated people either not getting it or getting it and suffering nothing but the sniffles for a couple of days. Now I understand that the plural of anecdote is not evidence, but to anyone with three functioning brain cells this looks for all the world like there's either serious questions about the efficacy of the vaccine, serious questions about the accuracy of the test, or both. Okay, one more. The vaccines don't stop people from getting the virus completely. There's no vaccine of any kind that has ever been able to do that perfectly. What the vaccines have tremendous success at is reducing the possibility of hospitalization and death from the virus. From memory, and I'm usually pretty good at remembering research, I've launched and edited a bunch of publications in my career, including in the areas of science and technology. But the rate of hospitalization and death for the unvaccinated is more than 11 times worse than it us for the vaccinated. The estimates are that more than 90% of those in US hospitals for COVID-19 today are unvaccinated. I've had three friends who went to the hospital, two almost died (a musician in a band I used to play in) and one died (technically, my friend's brother). All were unvaccinated, reflecting national statistics. Vaccination also has an impact on transmission which is not insignificant, but frankly, I can't recall that stat and I'm on my phone getting ready to watch "Book of Bobba Fett" with the family. As always, we can agree to disagree, but we have to respect one another and respect facts if our conversation is to be of any value. Peace. Edited January 28, 2022 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I GOT VACCINATED! But how many people die from the flu who got the flu vaccine? How many people die from malaria who have been vaccinated? How many people die from smallpox who have been vaccinated? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandolin Picker Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, bdickens said: AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I GOT VACCINATED! ...How many people die from smallpox who have been vaccinated? The last smallpox case was in 1972. Smallpox was considered eradicated in 1980. The smallpox vaccine isn't even given anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Mandolin Picker said: The last smallpox case was in 1972. Smallpox was considered eradicated in 1980. The smallpox vaccine isn't even given anymore. Thus kinda proving my point.... Edited January 28, 2022 by bdickens 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 39 minutes ago, Mandolin Picker said: . The smallpox vaccine isn't even given anymore. I think there might be one or two people here old enough to have received it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grem Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 I won't miss any music due to this action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertWS Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Can we censor the people here who are advocating censorship? Perhaps when it is done to them, their eyes will be opened. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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