Noise when music is too complex in Cakewalk

[Michaelgrig]

 

Hi guys, the following problem: I have a new PC and use it among other things for the production of music (used program: Cakewalk). However, when I have too many tracks or when it gets too loud, all I hear is noise and extremely slow and jerky sounds. It is not due to too little CPU or RAM power (AMD Ryzen 5 5600G and 16 GB). I suspect that the sound unit anchored in my motherboard (MSI B450 Tomahawk MAX II) is just not good enough. The driver I have set in Cakewalk is MME (32-bit). All others do not work, not even ASIO. I think I would have to buy a sound card with it then, right? Unfortunately I have no idea about such things. would you please help what I should do? Outside of the program, everything is fine with the sound (am connected via bluetooth with headphones and speakers).

 

[scook]

The problem is using bluetooth audio devices and their driver support.

MME32 is the poorest performing Windows driver.

You may be able to get proper playback by increasing the Mixing Latency (moving the slider to the right) in Preferences > Audio > Driver Settings but in the long run it is going to be difficult to use this audio solution with a DAW.

An audio interface designed for DAW use with a manufacturer supplied ASIO driver is the solution. Beware some entry level audio interfaces lack proper driver support too. 

 

[Michaelgrig]

so everything should work with cable headphones?

 

[scook]

It should work better given the internal sound chip can use  the WASAPI driver, however; for recording audio, an interface designed for DAW use with a manufacturer supplied ASIO driver is the solution.

[Byron Dickens]

Exactly.

 

A proper audio interface with proper ASIO drivers will instantly solve 90% of your audio issues.

[John Vere]

 

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:10 AM, bdickens said:

A proper audio interface with proper ASIO drivers will instantly solve 90% of your audio issues.

That depends on what the audio issues are.

In this case, buying an Audiobox or Scarlett and continuing to monitor with bluetooth cans in MME would likely result in no improvement whatsoever, so first, they need to switch to WASAPI and hardwired cans. The Superlux 681's would be my choice if on a budget. If willing to spend a little more, Audio Technica ATH-50's or Sony MDR-7506.

If the OP is doing completely ITB electronic music, the onboard CODEC should work just fine for monitoring. What MSI says about the onboard sound in that motherboard: "A high fidelity sound experience with exceptional acoustics and realism for studio level headphones." Marketing hype, but the fact that they're at least paying attention to it is good. They even use fancy Chemicon audio grade caps in the amp section.

There's been a change in the past several years regarding onboard sound CODEC implementation. Gamers play for hours with headphones on, and game designers spend good money and dev time working on game sound. So the hardware used to drive those headphones can't sound like crap.

Which brings up another point for the OP: go into the sound settings and make sure that any enhancements are turned off while you're working in your DAW. They add overhead and interfere with the true sound of your mix.

I continue to hold out hope that some fine day, the people who make those onboard CODEC's (Realtek still seems to own the market) will release a truly usable ASIO driver for them. In the meantime, WASAPI usually works well. My 10-year-old laptop with its Intel High Definition hardware CODEC can run some fairly complex projects with multiple instances of A|A|S Player using WASAPI.

[Byron Dickens]

I did miss the Bluetooth bit, but a proper interface would eliminate that.

 

?

Edited October 30, 2021 by bdickens

[Michaelgrig]

Thank you very much for the answers!
well I now have cable headphones, as a driver Wasapi. Nevertheless, the noise remains there, and already at very low volume the levels quickly fade into the red. ASIO still doesn't work, ASIO4ALL doesn't seem to work in Cakewalk in general.  I followed the instructions from the videos, it seems to be hardware related, right? Outside Cakewalk as I said everything ok with the sound.
I don't know what interface I need, I definitely don't want to record anything via microphones, I just want to work with digital instruments. So I wouldn't need any microphone connections. Would an interface or sound card solve my audio problems at all? For example, I looked up the https://www.amazon.de/Soundkarte-TechRise-Lautstärkeregler-Kontrolle-Tablet-PC/dp/B01M0HP59L/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=ASIO%2BUSB-Soundkarte&qid=1635684091&sr=8-1-spons&smid=AYK8RGDIO4P1N&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyUUhZQkFFNjBLMVVOJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDYxNzIzMTVXS1pINERLQzFEMiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTU3NjkxMUlYQlQwWDE0SkUwRyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1 The reviews seem good, only the sound is apparently quiet, with Realtek Audio it is already quiet with me at least now, although it beats out quickly. Someone wrote about a headphone amplifier that would solve the problem?

[John Vere]

Ok if you did everything in my video and you still have an issue let’s try something else. 

1- make sure to disable all audio input devices. You can start in Cakewalk preferences by unchecking all inputs. You can also do this in Windows sound settings as shown in video. 
As I said in the video best to uncheck all devices  you are not using   

2- in Preferences/Midi devices uncheck all outputs. 
Make sure none of your VST’s have midi output selected but by disabling outputs this should not matter. 
 

There’s a possibility of a feedback loop ? happening. 
 

Screenshots of your Audio settings and midi devices might help us troubleshoot 

Edited October 31, 2021 by John Vere

[Byron Dickens]

I get in trouble when I tell people that ASIO4ALL is garbage, so I won't tell you that ASIO4ALL is garbage.

With the onboard sound, you should be using the WASAPI driver.

You sure aren't going to get a decent interface for 13 Euros. You're probably better off sticking with the Realtek chip.

[Michaelgrig]

7 minutes ago, bdickens said:

I get in trouble when I tell people that ASIO4ALL is garbage, so I won't tell you that ASIO4ALL is garbage.

With the onboard sound, you should be using the WASAPI driver.

You sure aren't going to get a decent interface for 13 Euros. You're probably better off sticking with the Realtek chip.

I downloaded ASIO4ALL. It just said that it was known not to work for Cakewalk. And indeed, the sound was not output.

[Michaelgrig]

2 hours ago, John Vere said:

Ok if you did everything in my video and you still have an issue let’s try something else. 

1- make sure to disable all audio input devices. You can start in Cakewalk preferences by unchecking all inputs. You can also do this in Windows sound settings as shown in video. 
As I said in the video best to uncheck all devices  you are not using   

2- in Preferences/Midi devices uncheck all outputs. 
Make sure none of your VST’s have midi output selected but by disabling outputs this should not matter. 
 

There’s a possibility of a feedback loop ? happening. 
 

Screenshots of your Audio settings and midi devices might help us troubleshoot 

take a look at it, if you'd be so kind?

[Byron Dickens]

It looks like both of your MIDI inputs are the same device. That might not be the problem, but I'm pretty sure that's not right

The multiple outputs shown for the Realtek are puzzling.  I only know enough German to get myself into trouble and not enough to get myself out, but it looks like you have "show mono outputs" selected. I'm guessing this is showing what amounts to two stereo pairs;  Cakewalk shows no change to My Focusrite when I select different options. Perhaps that you have all the outputs selected is the issue. Try selecting only one pair.

[John Vere]

OK they all look normal to me. Those are all correct settings.  But I still think there's a audio loopback happening somewhere if the sound starts out quiet and slowly builds up. It could even be a certain plug in your using. 

There's nothing generally wrong with using a Real tech audio system. I have that on my office computer and it's very good for just In the Box work. I've never had issues with the sound.

There is always the possibility that it is defective, after all they are having huge issues with manufacturing electronics right now. Not a good time to buy. Compromises are probably being made. The guy who cleaned the washrooms has been handed the soldering iron. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by John Vere

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:03 PM, bdickens said:

I did miss the Bluetooth bit, but a proper interface would eliminate that.

?

b, do you work for Focusrite by any chance? ?

I haven't gotten around to it, but at some point I plan to do some experimenting with plugging an external interface into my laptop, using ASIO, and seeing if my mixing and recording latency changes from using the internal CODEC with WASAPI Exclusive.

I'll let you know the results in the next "bdickens: you should get an interface with an ASIO driver/Starship Krupa: not necessarily" matchup.

And BTW, speaking of Exclusive vs. Shared, on my laptop, I notice a significant difference between them, not only with latency but with sound quality. My ears are sensitive to the transient dulling that can happen when Windows resamples the audio stream, and there seems to be more of that going on with Shared than with Exclusive.

[Byron Dickens]

Yeah, and when you do that make sure you record live instruments and have a whole mixes worth of about 25 tracks too.

 

Make sure you mix it on those cheap-***** laptop speakers too and see how well it translates.

Edited November 6, 2021 by bdickens

[Starship Krupa]

6 minutes ago, bdickens said:

Yeah, and when you do that make sure you record live instruments and have a whole mixes worth of about 25 tracks too.

Make sure you mix it on those cheap-***** laptop speakers too and see how well it translates.

Ooh, moving the goalposts!

Well, b, that's where the "not necessarily" comes in. I am 100% with you when it comes to recording live instruments. For recording audio, an external interface is "the price of admission" in my book. For the traditional setup where there's a tower computer sitting there, and the band comes in and records their parts either mic'd or DI'd, any attempt to do that without an interface is doomed.

At least in this case, the OP said that they are monitoring on cans. IMO, for entirely ITB production, something like a Scarlett Solo would pretty much act as a big headphone DAC and amplifier dongle. Which is fine if you want that, but where I differ is whether someone needs that for ITB electronic music production.

And who said anything about speakers? It's not as if external interfaces automatically come with a pair of powered KRK's. A cable with a 1/8" stereo plug to a pair of RCA's will work fine for connecting to external monitors. I couldn't do as you ask anyway, because the internal speakers in my antique Dell Latitude stopped working even before I sent it on a 2' drop onto concrete. ?

I'll play by the OP's rules: 100% ITB, monitoring on cans. And I'll try loading a big mix with multiple synths, audio tracks and FX.

Who knows what I'll find out. I have an old M-Audio Audiophile Firewire interface and will hook it up and run some tests, not just latency, but listening quality. I love being surprised. Although I don't love the idea of hauling around a clunky box.

[Byron Dickens]

I didn't move s***.

The OP never said anything about not wanting to record anything until much later. If anyone moved any goalposts it was him.

You should have figured out by now that everything I say is predicated on getting high quality the simplest way you can do it.

Even if you were working 100% ITB, the converters and a real audio interface are going to be way better than the ones on your onboard chip. Also decent monitors don't come with a 1/8" stereo plug. Even if you're using headphones, the converters....

Besides, why artificially impose the limitation on yourself?  You could one day get the wild idea that a live shaker or hand claps is the only thing between your latest EDM masterpiece and perfection. Or you might meet a beautiful woman with a beautiful singing voice.

[John Vere]

Well It looks like Mr Grigorowitsch has wandered off leaving a trail of none responding threads behind so you boys can relax. 

Funny thing is in this thread below  they say right away they are using WASAPI mode. And Once again we obviously have a language and terminology issue. It would be cool to have volume that does go too fast. 

 

 

 

[Starship Krupa]

5 hours ago, bdickens said:

You should have figured out by now that everything I say is predicated on getting high quality the simplest way you can do it.

Me, too. It doesn't get much simpler than plugging in a pair of headphones. ?

Shoot, b, this is all supposed to be in good fun. If your response isn't just roughhousing (it's hard to know in this context), I'm truly sorry if I came off as attacking or too argumentative. I'm a geek, I'm curious about whether my beliefs about sound quality and latency ( that they'll both be better with the Audiophile) are borne out in testing. Not trying to prove that anyone's "right" or "wrong."

Noel says that he tests Cakewalk on a system with a Realtek and gets decently low mixing latency, so I'm extra curious (that was not an Appeal To Authority, BTW ?).

I agree with almost everything you've said. From where I stand, the only thing we seem to disagree about is at what point the budding recordist should invest $100+ in an audio interface. It's just earlier from your point of view than it is from mine. For you it seems to be ESSENTIAL NOW. For me, it's more "a good idea at some point." From my POV, someone running a rocket sled like that in MME 32 has issues to correct before shelling out for the interface. Numero uno, switch that thing to WASAPI ASAP. Numero dos turned out to be getting NON bluetooth cans.

5 hours ago, bdickens said:

why artificially impose the limitation on yourself?

There are multiple reasons why a n00b might want to wait on buying an interface and do it out of expanded needs rather than under pressure of trying to get their system to play back audio smoothly. Maybe they're a young person with little income who just dropped some big coin on that motherboard and RAM and they have to juggle expenditures. Could be that the onboard CODEC was defective and a warranty issue will be uncovered. They advertise the onboard sound as being somehow fancy-pants, so he surely paid something for it.

It's not the worst thing in the world for someone to listen to their stuff through a lower-end DAC for a while, get used to how it sounds. Then when they finally pop for the Scarlett (it's always a Scarlett, isn't it?), they can better appreciate the differences.

Can we just have a difference of opinion? It doesn't have to descend into virtual fisticuffs when one guy says buy a new interface and another guy says hold on a sec. Does it?

5 hours ago, bdickens said:

You could one day get the wild idea that a live shaker or hand claps is the only thing between your latest EDM masterpiece and perfection.

Heck, wouldn't a "producer" just download percussion samples? ?

I was working on something recently where I was mixing and absently fiddling with one of those plastic LP Egg Shakers, and sure enough, I came up with a rhythm and just HAD to record it, in a continuous take the full length of the track. This when I have a Kontakt library of plastic fruit-shaped shakers, I have samplers and ROMPlers all with beautifully recorded shakers, but as the lord is my witness I rocked that sucker old school into the MXL2001. No edits. I'm like The Doors of plastic egg shakers, just nail that sucker and press it.

If someone made a video it could blow up on YouTube: "Watch How This Grey-haired Wannabe 'Producer' Makes a Shaker Track." ?‍♂️