"Upgraded" to Windows 10, Cakewalk performance has suffered greatly

[Starship Krupa]

On 1/17/2019 at 9:42 AM, Jim Roseberry said:

I use the Adobe Creative Cloud (good use from it), but they are the worst at having applets running in the background.

Even with services set to "manual start", you have to manually stop creative cloud processes.  They won't stop upon closing Photoshop, Premier, After Effects, Audition, etc.

Don't I know it, no matter what I do, if I run a web browser on a computer, I will at some point find that the Adobe Updater Service has started up once again, along with its insidious buddies, the Apple Updater and all the iTunes and iPod/iPhone helpers.

Kept disabling them in Services, CCleaner, Autoruns, whatever.

I finally put on my pith helmet and made my way deep into the recesses of Task Scheduler, where I found the Adobe services, the Google Crash Handler, the Apple Updater, all those sniveling little creeps hanging out not only waiting to start in the wee hours of the morning, but I learned that at some point in the 16 or so years since my certification lapsed, Task Scheduler had gained much wider ability to launch tasks based on event monitoring, such as another process terminating, which is why I'd wind up playing Whack-A-Mole with them: iPod Service was set to launch upon shutdown of iTunes Handler, which was set to launch on shutdown of Apple Updater, which was....

So I sometimes use a utility called Process Lasso. Steev, if he knows about it, probably loathes the very fact of its existence, and will tell me that my occasional use of it is one of the reasons that Cakewalk (besides insufficient RAM, no SSD, not enough Waves plug-ins, and an overall lack of Focusrite) and my system in general wasn't running so hot when I first upgraded it to Windows 10.

It's the antithesis of the "DUDE!!! don't touch anything!!! don't even point to it!!! Microsoft needs to tune your system via TELEMETRY!!!" school of thought.

Process Lasso allows the user to do some nifty things like set Priority for certain processes and make that stick (for when you're running Process Lasso), as well as designate certain processes to be terminated on sight. So for instance, I can set cakewalk.exe to Above Normal and have it be that way whenever Process Lasso is running. You can set Priority in Task Manager of course, but that only persists until you terminate that session of the program.

I have Process Lasso set to kill all of the Apple crap while I'm doing DAW work and one day I checked its log and witnessed the tale of what had been an epic battle between Process Lasso and Apple Updater. Apple Updater I guess had decided that this time it wasn't going to stay down, and every 20 milliseconds it would relaunch, and in the next millisecond, Process Lasso would send it back to computer heaven. I think it went on for minutes, which when we're talking milliseconds, is a good long battle. Of course, Process Lasso was not going to give up either, and finally Apple Updater ran out of triggers or whatever kept starting it back up.

At the moment my system is practically snoozing since I turned off Windows Defender's realtime monitoring. I just looked at Task Manager's Performance display and all 3 disks showed 0% activity while I'm typing away in my browser. It's nice to have a computer that understands the meaning of "idle" again.

[Jim Roseberry]

3 hours ago, ien said:

Do you have any experience of a Quantum interface being used on a motherboard through an add on controller, as opposed to the board natively supporting it? I ask as my board doesn't support it natively but has the add on option and i think i read presonus say that the board needs to support it natively (although i didn't find the remark when just looking for it. I don't think i imagined it though).

The Quantum works just fine with Thunderbolt-3 AICs (add-in-controllers).

I'm using the Asus Thunderbolt EX3.

[Steev]

13 hours ago, msmcleod said:

WMaybe it's my relatively ancient motherboard, but my both my Scarlett 6i6 and 18i20 are working fine plugged into USB 3 ports. When plugged into a USB 2 port, I couldn't get it to run reliably with less than 6ms latency.

When plugged into the USB 3 port and until the Windows 1809 update, I was running the latest "release" version drivers (MixControl v1.8) for the mk1 6i6 / 18i20. I could run at 2ms latency with no issues.

For some reason the 1809 update upset things, so I moved over to the latest beta drivers (MixControl v1.10b3) which has changed the drivers considerably (the ASIO panel is now separate from MixControl). Still plugged into the USB 3 port, I'm running reliably with a buffer of 64 which gives me a latency of 1.5ms.

It can run with a buffer of 32, but not without the odd pop & click.

But in any case, Scarlett + USB 3 works well with my setup.

I'm still happily running 1803, I read too many horror reports and stories about losing files (actually being placed in new and different folders, which is pretty much the same results) to update to 1809.

 Never being one to jump to early into the early release pool, I dodged those bullets. And before I even considered, Microsoft quickly pulled the mandatory update rollout which I believe is still in effect, at least it is here in the US.

 I'm even getting notifications on my Mac to upgrade from OSx v13.xx High Sierra to OSx v14 Mojave. ? But it's not broke, no need to fix it, and I'll be happily kicking back and watching Mac Heads and Windows evangelists who can wait to get the latest and greatest beta test and burn themselves with these new and oh so mysterious updates. 

 I run Windows 10 Pro on my workstation which enables me to defer biannual  updates. I also have a crash test dummy Intel i7 computer in the living room which I use to test all Windows systems updates on before updating my workstation

 

My motherboard is about 6 or 7 years old ASRock 990FX, AMD FX 8750 CPU 4 g/Hz with 16 gigs of DDR3 PC1866 RAM in duel channel mode, SATA6/USB 3.1. It doesn't even recognize a Scarlett plugged into a USB 3 port. But I'm using the latest version of Mix Control 2.3.4. released about a year ago, which I believe prevents me from plugging into a USB 3 port. No need to. v2.3.4 has rock solid and trouble free so far, and fixed the issue with MixControl services not automatically starting upon Windows boot up reporting "No hardware" hooked up with AMD systems. It was weird because the 18i20 still worked exactly as I originally set it up with Focusrite ASIO drivers, but MC didn't see the 18i20.

 However now that you mention it, the early release of Scarlett Gen 2 series with M C v1.10xx Focusrite recommended plugging into  USB 3 port, but ONLY if you have problems using a USB 2 port

 I see absolutely no reason to run my 18i20 at anything but 128 buffers at 24 bit 48k/Hz on my system.

 SPlat and CbB both report 2.7 msec effective recording latency and I can mix 50+ audio and MIDI tracks running with dozens of FX plugins by Waves, Cakewalk, Eventide and several VSTi synths Cakewalk TTS-1, Rapture Pro, Session Drummer 2 and or 3 Addictive Drums 1 and or 2 Addictive Keys Grand Piano, or what ever running, with out having to ever bother increase buffer size for heavy and complex mixing sessions.

Though I seldom run mixing session that large and complex, I run enough to notice that Cakewalk by Bandlab is in fact noticeably more computer resource friendly efficient then SONAR Producer running on Windows 10 Pro. And Windows 10 Pro is also in fact noticeably more computer resource friendly efficient then Window 7 Ultimate ever was.  

With Win 7 Cakewalk CPU meter would hover between the 50-55% range. Win 10 my CPU (both set to load balancing across all 8 cores in AMD Overdrive and Cakewalk control panels), the FX 8370 still runs cool and quiet and never even reaches to 50% mark with Cakewalk's CPU meter.

 Load Balancing only works on my AMD/ASRock system, it has absolutely no noticeable effect on my Intel i7/Asus systems for some reason.

With the i7 system, I can NOT mix 50+ audio and MIDI tracks running with dozens of FX plugins in CbB without cranking up the buffer size from 128 to 512 to smooth out pops and dropouts.

And while the Intel i7 system can score better in a video game bench test, AMD stomps the Intel for DCC (Digital Content Creation) in both Cakewalk and Sony Vegas Pro. Both computers have the same AMD FirePro GPU Accelerated Graphics cards. The AMD system is 20 to 40 % faster rendering, and can run more video FX plugins before video monitoring artifacts and latency occur.

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Steev

[John Nelson]

1 hour ago, Jim Roseberry said:

The Quantum works just fine with Thunderbolt-3 AICs (add-in-controllers).

I'm using the Asus Thunderbolt EX3.

Jim,

Would that be an option for a Asus Prime Z370-P mb?  i7 8700K.

[Jim Roseberry]

6 minutes ago, John Nelson said:

Jim,

Would that be an option for a Asus Prime Z370-P mb?  i7 8700K.

Hi John,

Unfortunately, no... the Prime Z370-P doesn't have a Thunderbolt-3 header (nor BIOS support) for the Thunderbolt EX3.

The Prime Z370-A  does have the Thunderbolt-3 header (and BIOS support) for the Thunderbolt EX3.

If you want Thunderbolt-3 as an option, you have to be careful with motherboard choice.  Only a handful have the necessary header and BIOS support for the AICs

[Steev]

2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Don't I know it, no matter what I do, if I run a web browser on a computer, I will at some point find that the Adobe Updater Service has started up once again, along with its insidious buddies, the Apple Updater and all the iTunes and iPod/iPhone helpers.

Kept disabling them in Services, CCleaner, Autoruns, whatever.

I finally put on my pith helmet and made my way deep into the recesses of Task Scheduler, where I found the Adobe services, the Google Crash Handler, the Apple Updater, all those sniveling little creeps hanging out not only waiting to start in the wee hours of the morning, but I learned that at some point in the 16 or so years since my certification lapsed, Task Scheduler had gained much wider ability to launch tasks based on event monitoring, such as another process terminating, which is why I'd wind up playing Whack-A-Mole with them: iPod Service was set to launch upon shutdown of iTunes Handler, which was set to launch on shutdown of Apple Updater, which was....

So I sometimes use a utility called Process Lasso. Steev, if he knows about it, probably loathes the very fact of its existence, and will tell me that my occasional use of it is one of the reasons that Cakewalk (besides insufficient RAM, no SSD, not enough Waves plug-ins, and an overall lack of Focusrite) and my system in general wasn't running so hot when I first upgraded it to Windows 10.

It's the antithesis of the "DUDE!!! don't touch anything!!! don't even point to it!!! Microsoft needs to tune your system via TELEMETRY!!!" school of thought.

Process Lasso allows the user to do some nifty things like set Priority for certain processes and make that stick (for when you're running Process Lasso), as well as designate certain processes to be terminated on sight. So for instance, I can set cakewalk.exe to Above Normal and have it be that way whenever Process Lasso is running. You can set Priority in Task Manager of course, but that only persists until you terminate that session of the program.

I have Process Lasso set to kill all of the Apple crap while I'm doing DAW work and one day I checked its log and witnessed the tale of what had been an epic battle between Process Lasso and Apple Updater. Apple Updater I guess had decided that this time it wasn't going to stay down, and every 20 milliseconds it would relaunch, and in the next millisecond, Process Lasso would send it back to computer heaven. I think it went on for minutes, which when we're talking milliseconds, is a good long battle. Of course, Process Lasso was not going to give up either, and finally Apple Updater ran out of triggers or whatever kept starting it back up.

At the moment my system is practically snoozing since I turned off Windows Defender's realtime monitoring. I just looked at Task Manager's Performance display and all 3 disks showed 0% activity while I'm typing away in my browser. It's nice to have a computer that understands the meaning of "idle" again.

Window telemetry doesn't tune your computer for DAWs it merely "trains" Windows 10 to your work habits. If you think you can out smart Microsoft's telemetry with Process Lasso and think it's going to stop and defeat telemetry processes, then you've got another thing coming.

 I don't need use Process Lasso, CC Cleaner, etc, because I use PC Matic.. It does all of those things, plus much and many more things that you would need a dozen more of free these Utilities and virus protection to do.

BTW, when using PC Matic's "SuperShield", Windows Defender shuts itself down, you cannot manually shut Windows Defender if you don't have a recognized Windows CERTIFIED VIRUS PROTECTION program actively running.

 Yep, and you aren't going to stop ANY required updates either. The best way to stop or actually slow these processes down to a low roar enough to get Window 10 up to full speed after updating from v 7 to v10 is NOT shut your computer down for a week.. Just reboot it at least once a day. Give it some alone time to do it's thing, and it will stop constantly doing it's thing

 

Apple Updater is another thing entirely, you can shut it down, but all your Apple software will stop working. Apple's iCloud, only necessary if you are collaborating and sharing files between a Windows computer and a Mac, iCloud is similar to Microsoft OneDrive, but they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The only thing they have in common is they both require setting up and maintaining accounts (as in logging in and Maintaining them and) will BOTH run in the background and send massive amounts of data back and forth if you don't maintain them and take out the garbage every once in a while. And there's also Google Drive which will do the same thing if you're not careful.

 And I've even noticed Bandlab.com high jacking control over my X Touch DAW controller if I open CbB with Bandlab running in Chrome. I keep hoping Bandlab's Mix Editor will suddenly start supporting MCU protocol , would be nice, but no such luck. And if it started supporting MCU and not HUI that would just start whining sessions like we're getting here in this forum.. Oh Boo Hoooo Why can I get my 20 year old piece of gear work with Windows 10??? Why do you need a new $2000 computer to run a Personus Quantum Thunderbolt 2 audio interface though a  Thunderbolt 3 port???????

Truth be told, I couldn't really give a monkey's arse, 'cause I'm running FINE with my Focusrite Scarlet, and so I'm thinking Bandlab, which support MIDI tracks is only looking for a MIDI keyboard controller, and most likely couldn't give a monkey's arse as to what kind of DAW controllers or audio interfaces anybody uses.

 And I really like the fact that if anyone BOO HOOs and SCREAMS about "BUT WHY ISN'T THERE A 32 BIT VERSION OF CAKEWALK?????????"

 Bandlab simply and quietly replies... " Because there isn't..."

 So suck it up all you cupcakes who think you have complete control and want everything to run forever and run for free, your sense of self entitlement only actually exists between the avenues of "Mildly Hilarious" and "Childishly Ridiculous", there never was anything that was free for life, and there never will be..  ????

[Steev]

40 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

fHi John,

Unfortunately, no... the Prime Z370-P doesn't have a Thunderbolt-3 header (nor BIOS support) for the Thunderbolt EX3.

The Prime Z370-A  does have the Thunderbolt-3 header (and BIOS support) for the Thunderbolt EX3.

If you want Thunderbolt-3 as an option, you have to be careful with motherboard choice.  Only a handful have the necessary header and BIOS support for the AICs

Well THAT sounds like a deal breaker to me? @Starship Krupa do you find this information useful? You might want to add a Scarlett or Clarrett Octopro to your budget if you fancy Focusrite preamps, you still won't have as may mic pre amps as you already do, but Presonus XMAX pre amps ain't too shabby.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Steev

[John Nelson]

15 minutes ago, Steev said:

Well THAT sounds like a deal breaker to me?

Not really.  I'm running a Babyface Pro on USB2 at 48 samples all day long.  But thanks for your concern.

 

[Jim Roseberry]

Babyface is an excellent performer.

When I was running a Fireface UFX (same core components), I rarely bumped it above the 48-sample ASIO buffer size.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Jim Roseberry

[abacab]

2 hours ago, Steev said:

 Yep, and you aren't going to stop ANY required updates either.

You can simply install or upgrade to Windows 10 Pro.  Then you can either turn off or have complete control over updates via "Group Policy Editor".

[ien]

4 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

The Quantum works just fine with Thunderbolt-3 AICs (add-in-controllers).

I'm using the Asus Thunderbolt EX3.

Excellent. Thank you!

[Jim Roseberry]

3 hours ago, abacab said:

You can simply install or upgrade to Windows 10 Pro.  Then you can either turn off or have complete control over updates via "Group Policy Editor".

Yep... you can completely disable all automatic updates (including notifications).

We do this for virtually all of our clients.  Those in commercial studios don't want to be hit-up with update prompts while clients are mid-session.

[Scott R. Garrigus]

On Windows Home, setting your connection to Metered will stop updates as well. Although, I don't know if that's just a delay or if it turns them off until you change the Metered option.

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://www.garrigus.com
* Cakewalk SONAR Video Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottGarrigus?sub_confirmation=1
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Publisher of the DigiFreq music recording newsletter: http://www.digifreq.com/
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[abacab]

4 hours ago, Scott R. Garrigus said:

On Windows Home, setting your connection to Metered will stop updates as well. Although, I don't know if that's just a delay or if it turns them off until you change the Metered option.

That can work if you are extra vigilant.  But I have one computer with Home and one with Pro, and I had a major feature update slip past me on Home once when I temporarily disabled the Metered network  option in order to let my monthly security update run.  You will have to disable that to get any downloads to run. If you do so, you will effectively open up the download chute to any updates that are lurking when you check for updates. It is too late to pick and choose 'em at that point.  Boom!

I prefer the confidence that Pro offers to not get blindsided like that!

[Steev]

WRONG. You can only turn off Notifications. Windows update ALWAYS runs in the background. Windows 10 Pro allows you to "defer" major version releases. "Defer" i.e. to "put off",

 Windows Update which will and does download updates in the background as unobtrusively as it can.

If "Power" scheme option is  left to "Balanced", Windows equally "Shares" computer resources with "Applications".

If you select "High Performance" mode Windows give "priority", but certainly not ALL resources to the application. And this is about the only choice you have to give your DAW priority over Windows

 And NEVER ONCE will you ever be  interrupted or intruded upon and forced to update while  you are working.

 Choosing "Metered Connection" is only putting like putting a Band-Aid on a mortal wound, you still have to updates Windows, but at least it helps train Windows users to specifically pick a time when you aren't working on your computer so Windows can update to patch and fix holes.

 I've found the best time to do this is around the beginning of "Patch Tuesday" and Wednesday morning works for me. Simply let the computer run, OVER NIGHT or any time you are NOT using it, and reboot in the morning or when you want to start using it again.

Do that and you'll never have to worry about Windows 10 maintaining itself ever again..

Edited January 20, 2019 by Steev

[Steev]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:08 PM, mdiemer said:

Great conversation, I love this stuff.  Musicians being musicians. and computer experts (if there is there such a thing anymore). I hope the mods aren't tempted to intervene. This kind of stuff pumps life into a forum like this. And it's quite tame compared to other places. Let the show go on!

I agree, except I would agree more if it was busted up into "Multiple" conversations, as in separate threads before it became so off course from the original convertation it morphed into a political conversation based on who has the most friends or bigger dick..

 Jeeze, that's exactly why I don't have a Twitter account. ?

BTW, did anyone even find a solution to @Starship Krupa GUI latency problem with CbB? I almost forgot that was what we were talking about...?

Edited January 20, 2019 by Steev

[Starship Krupa]

26 minutes ago, Steev said:

I agree, except I would agree more if it was busted up into "Multiple" conversations, as in separate threads before it became so off course from the original convertation it morphed into a political conversation based on who has the most friends or bigger dick..

 Jeeze, that's exactly why I don't have a Twitter account. ?

BTW, did anyone even find a solution to @Starship Krupa GUI latency problem with CbB? I almost forgot that was what we were talking about...?

Steev, you should have your own subforum on here! You da MAN!!! Nobody's gonna stop that Microsoft telemetry!!

The weenie wagging in this thread has been ferocious and hilarious. I've lost track of which audio interfaces are supposed to be the best and which way we're supposed to connect them and everything, but it's awesome.

I'm gonna plug my Hocus Pocus by Focus Rite in to my PCIe USB3 Thunderbolt and Lighting very very frightning Galileo PC Manic Depressive fiber optic Window Pro Insider Telemetric Eccentric Octopreamp and then go into the mountains and meditate for a year while my computer stabilizes itself, and then after that my latency is gonna be so low that I won't be able to software monitor because the damn cans will be playing what I'm about to play before I even play it! I'll have NEGATIVE LATENCY!!!!

It confirms my belief that I made the right decision when I bought a pair of Presonus interfaces that were already obsolete when I got them from a guy on Craig's List a couple of years ago. He dropped one of them when he was pulling them out of his storage container, so I got him to knock $20 off the price. It worked when I got it home though. They connect via Firewire 400. I use the built-in preamps. When I was running Windows 7 I could get them to go down to 2ms without going "brrrrrt." Mostly they stayed at 4ms.

My system has settled down since I first pulled an older nVidia GPU that I suspect of having drivers that were too old for Windows 10, and second, turning off Defender's realtime scanning. I want to find an inexpensive replacement for the nVidia, because now the graphics look like poo. Unfortunately, graphics cards are all about 3-D performance and pay no mind to 2-D performance, which is what I am most interested in. I figure the humblest $30 card should be fine for my aging Optiplex, but I don't know what to get.

As for Cakewalk I've been studying that Play lag thing in greater depth with the help of Resource Monitor. It may have something to do with my settings when I'm tracking projects with many takes like my friend Geoff was doing when he was here over the holidays.

I don't want to go into great detail just yet, but this one project of his wound up with 12 tracks. However, each of those 12 tracks had as many as 10 takes that were still sitting there with their lanes muted, clips muted, whatever, in case he changed his mind about comping. When we hit the spacebar to start the transport, Cakewalk (I could see this via Resource Monitor) started streaming audio files that were only in muted lanes and clips. I'm not sure it's supposed to do that. Either that or I'm not sure that Geoff was managing his unused takes correctly. I'm still experimenting with different settings and observing the effect on performance. I will report my findings to the forum when they are more fully found.

[Steev]

@Starship Krupa Ah MANNN..... Now ya made me laugh coffee out of my nostril holes, but that's OK  because all missed my computer keyboard.

 

So umm, did you try "Freezing" all the audio tracks with all those multiple takes and see if that fixes the problem????

OMG could it be that simple? ?

Yep, the possibility exists...……….

Edited January 20, 2019 by Steev

[Starship Krupa]

35 minutes ago, Steev said:

@Starship Krupa Ah MANNN..... Now ya made me laugh coffee out of my nostril holes, but that's OK  because all missed my computer keyboard.

 

So umm, did you try "Freezing" all the audio tracks with all those multiple takes and see if that fixes the problem????

OMG could it be that simple? ?

Yep, the possibility exists...……….

I haven't yet, but I did hit the button that turns off all the effects. What I am doing is systematically deleting those lanes and watching what happens with the response and with the Resource Monitor action.

As I say, still working on it. Thanks for the idea on freezing, I'll have to go back to an early version of the project and give that a try. It would be interesting to see what happens. If the problem really is that it's dragging around too many unused takes, if freezing affects it.

Geoff is a take-a-holic, that's for sure. I have sat him down at the kit and gone back into my shop to work on amps and he's bashed away, I go back in and there are 25 takes of drums piled up, and he wants to keep them all "for comping." That's 100 lanes! Good thing I only use 4 mics! But people like that are great for testing the limits. I'm forever asking him "can I delete these??" It was a real hoot with Mixcraft, which doesn't have collapsible lanes.

[abacab]

6 hours ago, Steev said:

WRONG. You can only turn off Notifications. Windows update ALWAYS runs in the background. Windows 10 Pro allows you to "defer" major version releases. "Defer" i.e. to "put off",

Dude, with all respect, you are just 100% wrong about this.  I have been using Windows 10 Pro for 2.5 years, and Windows never updates until I ask it to check for updates.

There is a policy setting in "Group Policy Editor" that lets you completely 100% disable automatic updating, as well as the notifications.   I have never in 2.5 years had a Windows update that ran without me first clicking on "check for updates". Of course, I always take a full Macrium Reflect image before I push that button.

Group Policy Editor > Local Computer Policy > Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > All Settings > Configure Automatic Updates

The text highlighted in blue in the image above explains how the policy works if it is set to "disabled".   I am quoting it here for clarity because it seems that embedded screen captures on this forum have a max width of 400 pixels. Too small to read.

Quote

If the status for this policy is set to Disabled, any updates that are available on Windows Update must be downloaded and installed manually. To do this, search for Windows Update using Start.

Edited January 20, 2019 by abacab