"Upgraded" to Windows 10, Cakewalk performance has suffered greatly

[Jim Roseberry]

I use the Adobe Creative Cloud (good use from it), but they are the worst at having applets running in the background.

Even with services set to "manual start", you have to manually stop creative cloud processes.  They won't stop upon closing Photoshop, Premier, After Effects, Audition, etc.

I have the same experience with Bandlab Assistant. ?   Granted, it's not used often

 

[Jim Roseberry]

I'm old, but I loath Cloud Storage for anything but small files.

[Starship Krupa]

22 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

I'm old, but I loath Cloud Storage for anything but small files.

I'm assuming you mean the deal where you have a folder on one or more systems that is automatically backed up to the cloud? Like Dropbox?

I was into it for a while around the time Dropbox first came out with it, thought it was cool that my files were showing up on all my different systems, but these days I find myself turning off the local sync part of the services and just using them on an ad hoc basis, where I drag and drop files to the server, and then if I want them, I download them. Having a folder on all these different computers that stays in sync seems kind of meh.

I like the Google Docs way of doing it where the app itself is browser based and if I want to work on it, I can do so from any computer that can access the site. This works well in situations like mine where I have multiple computers at home, for basic office suite type apps. I haven't messed with it much, but I guess BandLab's DAW is like this too.

Where the cloud storage services shine for me these days is for collaboration. Throwing rough mixes or stems up on MEGA or Box or Google Drive for transfer is great. If BandLab wind up positioning themselves as the go-to site for musicians who want to collaborate, I think that would be a good place to be.

[Jim Roseberry]

Exactly.  

I use Drop-Box on an "as needed" basis.  

But I don't want it (or any other application) automatically trying to backup my files (especially not audio/video files).

[abacab]

I have a Dropbox icon on my quick launch bar, ready for any ad-hoc needs.  I always shutdown the Dropbox task when I am finished syncing, and it never starts with Windows boot.

[Steev]

1 hour ago, Jim Roseberry said:

I'm not sure if the above was serious... or in jest

By today's standards, running 6ms total round-trip latency isn't really that low.

ie: RME Fireface-800 (now about 15 years old) connects via Firewire... and can achieve 6ms total round-trip latency at 44.1k using a 64-sample ASIO buffer size. 

 

Using a Presonus Quantum (connected via Thunderbolt-3), you can do things like run Helix Native (software only version of the Helix guitar processor) at 96k using a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.  That's 1ms total round-trip latency.  To be able to to this effectively requires a fast well-configured machine.

If the comments about latency perception were serious, you absolutely can tell the difference between 6ms and 12ms latency (especially with high transient instruments). 

Dial up your favorite piano sample library... and set your ASIO buffer size such that playback (one way) latency is 6ms.  Now double the current ASIO buffer size so that playback (one way) latency is 12ms.  Which one feels tighter and more immediate while playing?  If your audio interface permits,  cut the original ASIO buffer size in half (3ms playback latency)... and compare  playing response to the previous two settings.  It's pretty easy to feel the difference.

 

If you're going to monitor thru software: 

• Anything higher than about 6ms total round-trip latency starts to feel pretty sluggish
• Upwards of 10ms total round-trip latency starts to feel unbearably sluggish
• Below 5ms starts to feel more comfortable
• Below 3ms feels tight 

 

If you have an audio interface that allows super low round-trip latency, you can test this for yourself.

• Set the audio interface to operate a 1ms total round-trip latency
• Open a test project with a single audio track
• Insert a delay plugin that offers fine control (1ms increments) and set the delay to be 100% wet
• Use the delay plugin's time parameter to simulate various amounts of (additional) round-trip latency

 

If you're going to do something like use a V-Drum kit to trigger drum samples from Superior Drummer 3 (in realtime),  you're going to want the lowest possible round-trip latency.  Round-trip latency above about 3ms will start to affect the feel.  Round-trip latency of 6+ms and the drummer will feel he's playing thru molasses.   With round-trip latency below 3ms, the drummer will feel much more comfortable.

 

 

First off, the newly released Presonus Quantum 2 is a Thunderbolt "2" audio interface, and plugging it into a Thunderbolt 3 port isn't going to make it run any faster, it's just backwards compatible. But KILLER audio interface BTW although killer pricy. Also Windows computers nor does Microsoft don't natively or officially support Thunderbolt, although it can be ported through a USB C on computer motherboards that support it.

It also can run under 1 msec EFFECTIVE RECORDING LATENCY not total roundtrip, not even analog recording studios can do that, LoL, the human brain even doesn't react that fast comprehending the information it receives from your ears..

 Did you know that it takes more than 6 msec to hear the sound a guitar amp traveling through the air located on the other side of a medium size stage or any room from you that located approx. 10 feet away from you from speaker cab to ear??? Assuming an air temperature of 59 degrees Fahrenheit (15 degrees Celsius), sound travels at 761.2 mph (1,225 km/h), at 1 msec per foot, actually precisely 9/10th's of a msec per foot, it will take approx. 10 msec for noise the guitar amp makes to reach your ears..

 Are you trying to say a sound 10 feet away has too much latency to jam with???

 I nor anyone else have ever heard any noticeable artifacts such as time delay, flanging, or phasing issues through any decent audio interface until around 30 msec of latency occurs.

 But all these overkill specs and sales hype aside, can a Presonus Quantum 2 pass a double blind shootout test against a Focusrite for superior sound quality? I have absolutely no disrespect for Presonus, but...…….. That would be a very doubtful and extremely pleasant sounding first for Presonus, but really just comparing apples to oranges I suppose for the average users. Once we get used to and familiar enough to like the sound of our equipment, all is good

 I've been a power user of MIDI since the mid eighties, and playing and triggering Cakewalk Session Drummer 2 & 3 and XLN Addictive Drums 1 and 2 for years now from various MIDI synths, Yamahas, Casios, Rolands, Ensoneq, Roland Octopads, V Drums, and even very inexpensive Alesis Sample pads thru either the Focusrite (1x1), Behringer X Touch (2x2), a MIDI Sport (8x8) MIDI interfaces and I don't have any MIDI performance latency issues  with either hardware or software Synths or any  dollar value, as long as they can transmit MIDI, devices like the X Touch or any other MIDI controllers.

  MIDI latency is an entirely DIFFERENT ball of wax from AUDIO latency. Poor MIDI performance latency "typically" has absolutely nothing to do with audio latency.

 But old outdated MIDI controller drivers can have a bad effect on total system and overall DAW performance.

 A good case in point is, when I upgraded from Windows 7 to v10 my Edirol PCR 500 stopped working. Heartbroken, I first tried hacked drivers that got it working, but SONAR got sluggish, I did not notice any change or artifacts in audio latency, MIDI and GUI latency was increasingly more abysmal with every track added to the project.

 But then a light bulb can on in my head and I realized the PCR 500 is nothing more then a MIDI controller, it can still be manually mapped, which is a tad tedious, and by plugging the USB into a cell phone charger for power it works fine, but once done, it's done and it doesn't need to run MIDI messages thru USB or it's own drivers, it has a standard 5 Pin MIDI port, and by interfacing that way, BAM! Splat was snappier then it ever was before. I have to credit Win 10 for that.

 

And secondly, I'm talking about 12 msec round trip audio latency running a signal directly from a mic or line input into the Scarlett's preamps, then AD/DA converters_ out to and thru Cakewalk using Cakewalk's built in "Input Monitoring" to hear any inserted "AUDIO" FX plugins in real-time, then back into the Scarlett back out through it DA/AD converters into my headphones and or studio monitors with no humanly detectable latency issues with either recording one audio track or 16 with my older Focusrite Octopre Mk II running into into it thru ADAT with everything, including MIDI devices and Cakewalk running/ slaved to the Scarlett gen 2's clock source thru one single USB 2 cable. And the coolest thing about that is.... ALL computers support USB 2.

And being I don't have any problems, nor has anyone ever complained about working with 12 msec because they can't  tell the difference if we're working with 6 msec or 12 msec, I don't even bother cranking up the frequency from 48 k/Hz to 96 K/Hz for 6 msec latency. Being humans cannot hear the difference between 24/48 and 24/96, recording at 24/96 being MUCH LARGER .wav files is nothing more than a waste of hard drive space.

 

[Jim Roseberry]

3 hours ago, Steev said:

First off, the newly released Presonus Quantum 2 is a Thunderbolt "2" audio interface, and plugging it into a Thunderbolt 3 port isn't going to make it run any faster, it's just backwards compatible. But KILLER audio interface BTW although killer pricy. Also Windows computers nor does Microsoft don't natively or officially support Thunderbolt, although it can be ported through a USB C on computer motherboards that support it.

It also can run under 1 msec EFFECTIVE RECORDING LATENCY not total roundtrip, not even analog recording studios can do that, LoL, the human brain even doesn't react that fast comprehending the information it receives from your ears..

 Did you know that it takes more than 6 msec to hear the sound a guitar amp traveling through the air located on the other side of a medium size stage or any room from you that located approx. 10 feet away from you from speaker cab to ear??? Assuming an air temperature of 59 degrees Fahrenheit (15 degrees Celsius), sound travels at 761.2 mph (1,225 km/h), at 1 msec per foot, actually precisely 9/10th's of a msec per foot, it will take approx. 10 msec for noise the guitar amp makes to reach your ears..

 Are you trying to say a sound 10 feet away has too much latency to jam with???

 I nor anyone else have ever heard any noticeable artifacts such as time delay, flanging, or phasing issues through any decent audio interface until around 30 msec of latency occurs.

 But all these overkill specs and sales hype aside, can a Presonus Quantum 2 pass a double blind shootout test against a Focusrite for superior sound quality? I have absolutely no disrespect for Presonus, but...…….. That would be a very doubtful and extremely pleasant sounding first for Presonus, but really just comparing apples to oranges I suppose for the average users. Once we get used to and familiar enough to like the sound of our equipment, all is good

 I've been a power user of MIDI since the mid eighties, and playing and triggering Cakewalk Session Drummer 2 & 3 and XLN Addictive Drums 1 and 2 for years now from various MIDI synths, Yamahas, Casios, Rolands, Ensoneq, Roland Octopads, V Drums, and even very inexpensive Alesis Sample pads thru either the Focusrite (1x1), Behringer X Touch (2x2), a MIDI Sport (8x8) MIDI interfaces and I don't have any MIDI performance latency issues  with either hardware or software Synths or any  dollar value, as long as they can transmit MIDI, devices like the X Touch or any other MIDI controllers.

  MIDI latency is an entirely DIFFERENT ball of wax from AUDIO latency. Poor MIDI performance latency "typically" has absolutely nothing to do with audio latency.

 But old outdated MIDI controller drivers can have a bad effect on total system and overall DAW performance.

 A good case in point is, when I upgraded from Windows 7 to v10 my Edirol PCR 500 stopped working. Heartbroken, I first tried hacked drivers that got it working, but SONAR got sluggish, I did not notice any change or artifacts in audio latency, MIDI and GUI latency was increasingly more abysmal with every track added to the project.

 But then a light bulb can on in my head and I realized the PCR 500 is nothing more then a MIDI controller, it can still be manually mapped, which is a tad tedious, and by plugging the USB into a cell phone charger for power it works fine, but once done, it's done and it doesn't need to run MIDI messages thru USB or it's own drivers, it has a standard 5 Pin MIDI port, and by interfacing that way, BAM! Splat was snappier then it ever was before. I have to credit Win 10 for that.

 

And secondly, I'm talking about 12 msec round trip audio latency running a signal directly from a mic or line input into the Scarlett's preamps, then AD/DA converters_ out to and thru Cakewalk using Cakewalk's built in "Input Monitoring" to hear any inserted "AUDIO" FX plugins in real-time, then back into the Scarlett back out through it DA/AD converters into my headphones and or studio monitors with no humanly detectable latency issues with either recording one audio track or 16 with my older Focusrite Octopre Mk II running into into it thru ADAT with everything, including MIDI devices and Cakewalk running/ slaved to the Scarlett gen 2's clock source thru one single USB 2 cable. And the coolest thing about that is.... ALL computers support USB 2.

And being I don't have any problems, nor has anyone ever complained about working with 12 msec because they can't  tell the difference if we're working with 6 msec or 12 msec, I don't even bother cranking up the frequency from 48 k/Hz to 96 K/Hz for 6 msec latency. Being humans cannot hear the difference between 24/48 and 24/96, recording at 24/96 being MUCH LARGER .wav files is nothing more than a waste of hard drive space.

Who said the Presonus Quantum was a Thunderbolt-3 audio interface???

I said it was connected via Thunderbolt-3.  "PCIe via Thunderbolt" (necessary for PCIe level performance) is only supported via Thunderbolt-3 controllers (see below).

To clarify:

• Microsoft absolutely DOES support "PCIe via Thunderbolt", but only on Windows 10 and only with Thunderbolt-3 controllers.
• USB-C is the type of Port that's used to carry Thunderbolt
• USB-C can also be used to carry USB-3.1 Gen-2
• Just because a motherboard has a USB-C port/s does not mean it has Thunderbolt or supports it.  The motherboard has to have a Thunderbolt-3 controller onboard... or it has to have a Thunderbolt-3 header and BIOS support for a Thunderbolt-3 AIC (add-in-controller card).

I'm well aware of stage latency (when not using IEMs).  Yes, you can compensate/anticipate... but walk about 50-100 feet off stage into the crowd.   I play the better part of 50 shows a year locally.  And no, I don't monitor our guitar players sound from his amp that's 20' away.  It's mic'd and the sound sent to my IEMs or wedge (much lower latency).

I gave specific examples of how anyone can test and see/hear for themselves that lower latency is indeed noticeable and feels more immediate/tight. 

Take that 12+ms round-trip latency into a session with any seasoned player... and I guarantee they're going to hear it... and not like it.

Been there and done that in Nashville way back in the day (recording the Memphis Horns, Terry McMillan, Tabitha Fair, etc).  Even the vocalists noticed the latency... and complained about it.  The solution back then was to split the signal and monitor off the board... so the performers could hear exactly what they wanted/needed (tone/EFX wise)... and not have the latency impede their performance.

If you can't feel the lag of latency until it gets to 30ms, more power to you.  I guarantee that's not the case with many folks.  I talk to them every day.   A composer using virtual-instruments to score for TV/Film doesn't want to play thru 30ms latency.  When one of our clients has Slash over to overdub guitars, he doesn't want to cope with 30ms of latency while monitoring and trying to play tight.

 

Fidelity comparison of Quantum vs. an audio interface that's half the cost?

Which do you think will have lower noise-floor, more stable digital-clock, quieter mic preamps, more dynamic range on the A/D D/A?

BTW, You can buy an audio interface that has better fidelity than the Quantum... but you'll spend a lot more to get it.

The Quantum is (right now) one of the best low latency performers.  That's why I moved from an Apollo 8 Quad and Quad Expander (lowest round-trip latency is about 3.7ms).

 

As a "power-user", if you can't feel the lag of 12+ms latency (especially on high-transient material), I don't know what to tell you. 

It's as easy to loading your favorite piano sample library... and playing at each ASIO buffer size.  The difference is obvious and immediate.

I was not talking about MIDI jitter/slop.  That's another conversation.  As you know, MIDI is a serial protocol (not parallel) and doesn't lend itself well to ultra-tight timing.  Newer MPE controllers that spit out a lot of CC data can cause MIDI data stream congestion (causing timing issues).   One reason that folks like virtual-instruments; once the MIDI part is captured, playback timing is sample-accurate (consistent)... unlike dealing with hardware instruments.  I had a Korg O1/W FD years ago that had an onboard sequencer that was all but useless.  If you tried to record joystick movements, it would clog the MIDI stream causing major timing issues.  Not much of a workstation if you can't effectively record.  

 

There's a time/place for working at higher sample-rates.  It's not practical all the time. 

It's overly simplifying the situation to say that humans can't hear the difference when recording at 44.1k vs. 88.2k and higher.  It's not just about hearing higher frequencies.  For things like AmpSim plugins (dealing with non-linearity), you can have aliasing happening in the audible range.  Perform the distortion processing at high sample-rates, and the aliasing is above human hearing range.  Even when converted back down to 44.1k, there can be a clear audible improvement.  Some plugins up-sample... as well as some DAW applications (CbB has an up-sampling option).

 

BTW, I wasn't a huge Presonus audio interface fan... until they released Quantum.  Had always used RME or MOTU, then moved the UA Apollo to take advantage of their "Unison" technology (monitoring UAD plugins with 2ms round-trip latency), then moved to Quantum due to its incredible ultra low-latency performance.  Presonus has a rock-solid performer in Quantum.

I should mention that Quantum can actually go down to a 16-sample ASIO buffer size.  I didn't mention it previously because no current machine can effectively make use of it.  Still, I'd rather have the option and not (currently) be able to use it.  Eventually, machines will be fast enough... and 16-sample ASIO buffer size will be usable. 

Note:

• 64-sample ASIO buffer size at 44.1k = 1.5ms
• 32-sample ASIO buffer size at 44.1k = 0.75ms
• 16-sample ASIO buffer size at 44.1k = 0.375ms

Round-trip latency is the sum of the following:

• ASIO input buffer
• ASIO output buffer 
• The driver's (often hidden) safety-bufferer
• A/D D/A

When it comes to round-trip latency, the audio interface's safety-buffer is the X-factor.  The best audio interfaces can use a small safety-buffer... whereas other audio interface's have to use a large safety-buffer.  The smaller the buffer, the lower the latency.

 

If I'm overdubbing drums (and trying for tightest timing), I'm certainly not going to listen to a monitor that's placed 12 feet away (~12ms latency).  I'm going to use IEMs or headphones.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your Focusrite audio interface.    There's also nothing wrong with acknowledging that there are other audio interfaces out there that are better performers for those who are concerned with ultra low latency.

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Jim Roseberry

[chris.r]

For years I was typing into Sonar/VSTi's with realtek & asio4all = ~40msec audible latency. Now if I'm playing live my every note/chord is split second ahed the music which sounds very funny

[Claude Messier]

Bonjour , tres mauvaise expérience pour moi aussi dans la migration vers Win 10, apres avoir installé le win 10,  d'abord mes projets cakewalk, stockés sur mon disque dur externe,  le fichier .cwp  a disparu dans plusieurs projets !!!! donc impossible de les ouvrir , et beaucoup de corruption de données audio illisibles aussi ?

Finalement j'ai désinstallé le win 10 et suis retourné a win 7 pro .... maintenant tout fonctionne , malgré le fait que j'a perdu beaucoup de projets musicaux 

Je travaille avec Sonar 8.5 , interface audio Roland quad capture  et j'ai récemment installé le cakewalk by bandlab, 

[msmcleod]

17 minutes ago, Claude Messier said:

Bonjour , tres mauvaise expérience pour moi aussi dans la migration vers Win 10, apres avoir installé le win 10,  d'abord mes projets cakewalk, stockés sur mon disque dur externe,  le fichier .cwp  a disparu dans plusieurs projets !!!! donc impossible de les ouvrir , et beaucoup de corruption de données audio illisibles aussi ?

Finalement j'ai désinstallé le win 10 et suis retourné a win 7 pro .... maintenant tout fonctionne , malgré le fait que j'a perdu beaucoup de projets musicaux 

Je travaille avec Sonar 8.5 , interface audio Roland quad capture  et j'ai récemment installé le cakewalk by bandlab, 

I found that when I first installed Windows 10, I started losing files.

It turned out that both my laptop and my desktop were both logged into the same Microsoft account, and syncing to the same OneSync repository. I ended up disabling OneSync, although you can configure it to sync to different remote directories if necessary.

Have you got OneSync running on more than one computer using the same Microsoft login?

[Jim Roseberry]

FWIW, We've seen the Fast Startup option (when dual booting) cause loss of data files.

If you're dual-booting (even two copies of Win10), make sure it's disabled.

[Midiboy]

What was said (I believe Steev) about OneDrive automatically backing up boot records is not true.  The ONLY thing OneDrive backs up automatically is your Documents, Pictures and Desktop folders...and ONLY if you specify it to do so.  You can enable the folder protection feature by going into OneDrive settings on Windows 10 and navigating to the Auto Save tab and hitting the update folders button under protect your important folders. It will NOT back up PST files or OneNote files that you may have in those locations.  

(Note OneDrive is not the same as OneSync.  OneSync also does not backup things like boot records, etc.  It only backs up things like settings and files you specify in a repository to allow multiple PCs you may own to "be in sync.") 

 

[Steev]

@Jim Roseberry Windows does not NATIVELY support Thunderbolt if it did you wouldn't need any special drivers or "Add On Controller Cards".

 I noticed you are a huge fan of "Speed" and "Specs". I also noticed the Presonus considers the Quantum line "Semi" professional, "Optimized" for Studio One, and boasts that  "It's Super Fast" yet doesn't offer any particular latency speed spec reports.

 And as far as you being able to plug into a Thunderbolt 3 controller card is the same as saying you plugged a USB 2 device into a USB 3 port. Focusrite sternly warns Scarlett users NOT to do that in their top 10 FAQ reports in Support to answer the common newbie question of "Why doesn't my Scarlett work?"

My only experience with the Quantum is through a friend who just bought a brand new  i7 workstation and the Quantum for his Studio One 4 system this Christmas, and I'll be the first to say "It's without a doubt a thing of Beauty" to work with.. It's only flaw is sometimes, for no apparent reason, the Quantum simply disappears from his system when he launches SO 4. That requires a fresh start over system reboot of Win 10 to get it back and connect.

 Now I know this doesn't happen on all systems, but it's been happening on many Windows systems since Apple invented Firewire.

 

But I am seriously impressed how the Quantum works with Studio One 4, the 2 sound engines that can be set for "1" low latency recording "2" high latency for high track count "mixing" sessions  put a a big smile on my face. But that's only essential for SO 4, not SONAR or CnB.

I set my Scarlett to record at 24/48 with buffers set to 128 in Cakewalk, simple set it and forget it. No problem recording with input monitoring with 16 audio tracks at one, no problem mixing 40 + tracks, no issues, no need to adjust buffers for latency or have another audio engine running, or even think about it.

 

I have a sneaky feeling you are going to seriously miss your Apollo, the  UAD system doesn't rely on round trip latency.. It has built in hardware for FX support for Universal Audio plugins

Just another way of doing things. It has zero latency while monitoring for UAD plugins running in real-time thru the Apollo, you don't even want to use Cakewalk's input monitoring unless you use any other dxi or vst plugins.

 

By the time all prosumer computers are powerful enough to support 16 and 32 buffer settings we will have already switched over to "Dente" Ethernet interfaces as an affordable medium, the wave of the future, and much faster then anything USB  and or Thunderbolt 2, 3 , 5, 6, or 7, or what ever Mac has too offer in the future.

 Until then I will use a Scarlett USB gen 2 because it WORKS, it's completely reliable with it's humanly indictable  latency reports using SONAR or CbB at rock solid at 12 mesc round trip with CAKEWALK BY BANDLAB.

And for the price of one Quantum 2, anyone can buy a Scareltt 18i20 + a Scarlett OctoPre for a total of 16 rather choice Focusrite mic or line input preamps. That 4x the amount of mic preamps you get with a comparably priced Quantum, and Focusrite "optimizes" their audio interfaces for EVERYTHING that supports the extremely universal USB 2 spec. ABSOLUTELY NO FANCY MOTHERBOARDS, LOGIC BOARDS, OR EXTRA HARDWARE, PCIe  OR DISPLAY PORTS, SPECIAL CONNECTORS OR ADDAPTORS REQUIRED!

 

I believe the point of this whole conversation is about getting an old Windows computer using a very old Focusrite Firewire 400 interface to play well with each other?

 I'm not sure that's gonna happen, but we'll never know until all possibilities and possible future driver hacks have been tried. Thunderbolt on a Windows PC? Not an established platform of reliability to say the least. Business as useable is more like it, or a crap shoot to be more precise.  Great for bragging rights when it works, but a bone chillingly expensive soul crushing nightmare when it doesn't.

 But one thing I know for sure, long time Focusrite users aren't interested in using anything but Focusrite any more that Logic Pro Mac heads are interested in buying a PC workstation to try out Cakewalk...

 And so have fun with your new Presonus Quantum, hope it  live up to and meets all your expectations. and never forget the one simple rule of physics that can never be broken. "Speed Kills."

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Steev

[Jim Roseberry]

Semantics... 

Who cares if the Thunderbolt driver has to be loaded in Win10?!?!  Takes all of 1 minute.

As I said, Windows 10 does support "PCIe via Thunderbolt"... which is what allows PCIe level performance.

 

"And as far as you being able to plug into a Thunderbolt 3 controller card is the same as saying you plugged a USB 2 device into a USB 3 port. Focusrite sternly warns Scarlett users NOT to do that in their top 10 FAQ reports in Support to answer the common newbie question of "Why doesn't my Scarlett work?""

This makes me chuckle...  ?  (it's not the same by any stretch - let me explain the details)

There is not a single Thunderbolt-2 controller on the planet that'll work under Windows for PCIe level performance.

Microsoft doesn't support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" for Thunderbolt-2 controllers.  Period.  There's no debate/question about it.

Under Windows, to achieve PCIe level performance from Thunderbolt, you HAVE to be running Win10 and a Thunderbolt-3 controller.  There's no other choice.

Since most audio interfaces are Thunderbolt-2, you have to use a Thunderbolt-3 to Thunderbolt-2 adapter.

Regarding Focusrite's "warning" about connecting to Thunderbolt-3 ports:  That was posted while they were beta-testing their "PCIe via Thunderbolt" drivers for Windows.  If you're going to run a Clarette under Windows (and want to achieve PCIe level performance), you absolutely HAVE to connect via Thunderbolt-3.

There's a really cool Focusrite rep here in town (really nice guy).  He asked two years ago at Sweetwater's Gear Fest if I was running a Clarett.  I told him, no... and explained why.  They were still sorting issues with their Windows support for Thunderbolt-3.  Meanwhile, MOTU/UA/RME/Presonus had release drivers fully supporting "PCIe via Thunderbolt."

Prior to Win10, Microsoft did not support "PCIe via Thunderbolt".  Thus, any audio interface under Win7 that's connected via a Thunderbolt-2 is running Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt.  Any audio interface under Win10 that's connected to a Thunderbolt-2 controller is running Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt.  Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt does not yield PCIe level performance. 

 

If you know anything about current generation motherboards and Thunderbolt, you know that very few motherboards actually come with an integrated Thunderbolt-3 controller.  There are a handful of motherboards that offer Thunderbolt-3 as an option.  These motherboard have a Thunderbolt-3 header... and support in the BIOS for the add-in-card that IS the Thunderbolt-3 controller.  This has zero to do with the OS natively supporting Thunderbolt.  For these motherboards, there is no Thunderbolt-3 without the add-in-controller.  

 

Regarding Quantum and round-trip latency, you can run RTL Utility to confirm (with any audio interface).  I've already done so.

http://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility

If your audio interface reports its latency accurately, CbB and Reaper will list the total round-trip latency.

 

As I said, you can buy an audio interface with better fidelity than the Quantum...

But you won't be doing it for $1k.  ?

My DAW is running 24/7.  The Quantum never disconnects... ever.

 

Regarding Studio One, Presonus has implemented a "Hybrid Buffering" scheme.

• A small buffer is used for tracks that are being monitored in realtime.
• Tracks that are merely playing back are processed using a large buffer (much more CPU efficient - especially across multiple cores)

Hybrid Buffering has been used in Logic and Samplitude for years.   Avid implemented it in ProTools 11.

Though CbB doesn't use a Hybrid Buffering approach, Quantum still works very well at ultra low latency.

 

Regarding the Apollo:  Why would I miss it?  It's still here.  ?

What you refer to as "zero latency" monitoring thru UAD plugins is not correct.

Using UA's "Unison" technology, you can monitor in realtime thru UAD plugins with 2ms round-trip latency.

That's certainly very low... but it's not zero-latency. 

True zero-latency monitoring can't happen with DSP processing.  No matter how small, the audio has to be processed using a buffer.

That buffer results in latency.  Doesn't matter if you're talking a digital console, ProTools HDX, Apollo's UAD plugins, or using native processing of VST plugins.

This is exactly why the Clarett series (and MOTU AVB, RME, etc) has higher round-trip latency than the Quantum (the onboard DSP).

 

"By the time all prosumer computers are powerful enough to support 16 and 32 buffer settings we will have already switched over to "Dente" Ethernet interfaces as an affordable medium, the wave of the future, and much faster then anything USB  and or Thunderbolt 2, 3 , 5, 6, or 7, or what ever Mac has too offer in the future."

If you mean Dante, the lowest round-trip latency you can achieve with Dante (via your motherboard's Gb Ethernet) is about 10ms.  

The Focusrite RedNet Dante cards can achieve PCIe level performance (round-trip latency on par with Quantum)... because... they're PCIe cards.  ?

PCIe is the bus that used inside a computer (Mac or PC) that connects hardware and distributes data (liken it to the Circulatory and Nervous systems).

Thunderbolt is for all intents/purposes "external PCIe". 

You can't have a peripheral that supersedes (speed wise) the bus used to connect it.   

Dante' via Ethernet will NEVER be able to outperform a PCIe card or "external PCIe" aka Thunderbolt.

Mac for high-performance???  You can't even put a second drive in any current generation Mac.

Apple has all but abandoned their power-users.  We hear from them every week.  Moving to PC because they can't get the speed/configuration they need from an iMac Pro or an 8 year-old (cylinder) Mac Pro.

 

"Thunderbolt on a Windows PC? Not an established platform of reliability to say the least. Business as useable is more like it, or a crap shoot to be more precise.  Great for bragging rights when it works, but a bone chillingly expensive soul crushing nightmare when it doesn't."

Bone-chilling soul-crushing nightmare of a crap-shoot... ONLY if you don't know what you're doing.  

If you know all the details... and configure properly, Thunderbolt is absolutely rock-solid on a PC.

We've got professional clients who are running Thunderbolt audio interfaces in commercial studios.   If they were unreliable, I'd be the first to hear it.

 

Speed only kills if you're ignorant of the danger and the details.  Speed is not synonymous with "reckless".

A rock-solid DAW isn't the result of guess-work, happen-stance, or dumb luck.  It's the result of knowledge/experience.

If you leave important details to chance, yes... that can absolutely bite you in the rear.

• A good doctor doesn't leave important details to chance
• A good lawyer doesn't leave important details to chance
• A good reporter doesn't leave important details to chance
• A good athlete doesn't leave important details to chance
• A world-class performer doesn't leave important details to chance

 

[Steev]

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I found that when I first installed Windows 10, I started losing files.

It turned out that both my laptop and my desktop were both logged into the same Microsoft account, and syncing to the same OneSync repository. I ended up disabling OneSync, although you can configure it to sync to different remote directories if necessary.

Have you got OneSync running on more than one computer using the same Microsoft login?

Actually you didn't lose files at all, they were put into a different folder then you were use to.

 I disabled and don't use One Drive at all for backing up and mirroring/duplicating any files. But that doesn't stop Microsoft from mirroring your boot records in your Microsoft account, and that's a good thing especially from those who choose to do a fresh Windows install on a brand new fresh SSD or hard drive.

 But as part of the scheme of telemetry, It will save your desktop, systems config, and current hardware drivers ( whether you like it or not), you can only choose to restrict it from saving  3rd party software/apps or personal files whether you choose to use One Drive or not..

 But IF you choose to use One Drive you can get everything back, very quickly any easily while you do nothing but sit back drinking coffee, beer, or power slamming shot of Tequila that can make you crazy while you sit back and watch Windows 10 and One Drive rebuild your system ..

 But for those who hate or fear cloud storage, you don't have to use any of  it, but you will have to spend days if not weeks manually loading up all the stuff like drivers, programs/apps, and lots of systems configurating to get your computer back to what it was where you left off.

 Also One Drive isn't like or a replacement for Drop Box or Google storage. Goggle is  nice, free, ample free storage but painfully SLOW! Drop Box isn't as slow and is cool for the first year but can get painfully expensive as time goes on.

 One Drive, like Apple's iCloud, most modern virus protection software suites, Google services (sans free Google Drive) and even Bandlab.com are VERY FAST cloud based services.

[Steev]

22 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Semantics... 

Who cares if the Thunderbolt driver has to be loaded in Win10?!?!  Takes all of 1 minute.

As I said, Windows 10 does support "PCIe via Thunderbolt"... which is what allows PCIe level performance.

 

"And as far as you being able to plug into a Thunderbolt 3 controller card is the same as saying you plugged a USB 2 device into a USB 3 port. Focusrite sternly warns Scarlett users NOT to do that in their top 10 FAQ reports in Support to answer the common newbie question of "Why doesn't my Scarlett work?""

This makes me chuckle...  ?  (it's not the same by any stretch - let me explain the details)

There is not a single Thunderbolt-2 controller on the planet that'll work under Windows for PCIe level performance.

Microsoft doesn't support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" for Thunderbolt-2 controllers.  Period.  There's no debate/question about it.

Under Windows, to achieve PCIe level performance from Thunderbolt, you HAVE to be running Win10 and a Thunderbolt-3 controller.  There's no other choice.

Since most audio interfaces are Thunderbolt-2, you have to use a Thunderbolt-3 to Thunderbolt-2 adapter.

Regarding Focusrite's "warning" about connecting to Thunderbolt-3 ports:  That was posted while they were beta-testing their "PCIe via Thunderbolt" drivers for Windows.  If you're going to run a Clarette under Windows (and want to achieve PCIe level performance), you absolutely HAVE to connect via Thunderbolt-3.

There's a really cool Focusrite rep here in town (really nice guy).  He asked two years ago at Sweetwater's Gear Fest if I was running a Clarett.  I told him, no... and explained why.  They were still sorting issues with their Windows support for Thunderbolt-3.  Meanwhile, MOTU/UA/RME/Presonus had release drivers fully supporting "PCIe via Thunderbolt."

Prior to Win10, Microsoft did not support "PCIe via Thunderbolt".  Thus, any audio interface under Win7 that's connected via a Thunderbolt-2 is running Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt.  Any audio interface under Win10 that's connected to a Thunderbolt-2 controller is running Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt.  Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt does not yield PCIe level performance. 

 

If you know anything about current generation motherboards and Thunderbolt, you know that very few motherboards actually come with an integrated Thunderbolt-3 controller.  There are a handful of motherboards that offer Thunderbolt-3 as an option.  These motherboard have a Thunderbolt-3 header... and support in the BIOS for the add-in-card that IS the Thunderbolt-3 controller.  This has zero to do with the OS natively supporting Thunderbolt.  For these motherboards, there is no Thunderbolt-3 without the add-in-controller.  

 

Regarding Quantum and round-trip latency, you can run RTL Utility to confirm (with any audio interface).  I've already done so.

http://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility

If your audio interface reports its latency accurately, CbB and Reaper will list the total round-trip latency.

 

As I said, you can buy an audio interface with better fidelity than the Quantum...

But you won't be doing it for $1k.  ?

My DAW is running 24/7.  The Quantum never disconnects... ever.

 

Regarding Studio One, Presonus has implemented a "Hybrid Buffering" scheme.

• A small buffer is used for tracks that are being monitored in realtime.
• Tracks that are merely playing back are processed using a large buffer (much more CPU efficient - especially across multiple cores)

Hybrid Buffering has been used in Logic and Samplitude for years.   Avid implemented it in ProTools 11.

Though CbB doesn't use a Hybrid Buffering approach, Quantum still works very well at ultra low latency.

 

Regarding the Apollo:  Why would I miss it?  It's still here.  ?

What you refer to as "zero latency" monitoring thru UAD plugins is not correct.

Using UA's "Unison" technology, you can monitor in realtime thru UAD plugins with 2ms round-trip latency.

That's certainly very low... but it's not zero-latency. 

True zero-latency monitoring can't happen with DSP processing.  No matter how small, the audio has to be processed using a buffer.

That buffer results in latency.  Doesn't matter if you're talking a digital console, ProTools HDX, Apollo's UAD plugins, or using native processing of VST plugins.

This is exactly why the Clarett series (and MOTU AVB, RME, etc) has higher round-trip latency than the Quantum (the onboard DSP).

 

"By the time all prosumer computers are powerful enough to support 16 and 32 buffer settings we will have already switched over to "Dente" Ethernet interfaces as an affordable medium, the wave of the future, and much faster then anything USB  and or Thunderbolt 2, 3 , 5, 6, or 7, or what ever Mac has too offer in the future."

If you mean Dante, the lowest round-trip latency you can achieve with Dante (via your motherboard's Gb Ethernet) is about 10ms.  

The Focusrite RedNet Dante cards can achieve PCIe level performance (round-trip latency on par with Quantum)... because... they're PCIe cards.  ?

PCIe is the bus that used inside a computer (Mac or PC) that connects hardware and distributes data (liken it to the Circulatory and Nervous systems).

Thunderbolt is for all intents/purposes "external PCIe". 

You can't have a peripheral that supersedes (speed wise) the bus used to connect it.   

Dante' via Ethernet will NEVER be able to outperform a PCIe card or "external PCIe" aka Thunderbolt.

Mac for high-performance???  You can't even put a second drive in any current generation Mac.

Apple has all but abandoned their power-users.  We hear from them every week.  Moving to PC because they can't get the speed/configuration they need from an iMac Pro or an 8 year-old (cylinder) Mac Pro.

 

"Thunderbolt on a Windows PC? Not an established platform of reliability to say the least. Business as useable is more like it, or a crap shoot to be more precise.  Great for bragging rights when it works, but a bone chillingly expensive soul crushing nightmare when it doesn't."

Bone-chilling soul-crushing nightmare of a crap-shoot... ONLY if you don't know what you're doing.  

If you know all the details... and configure properly, Thunderbolt is absolutely rock-solid on a PC.

We've got professional clients who are running Thunderbolt audio interfaces in commercial studios.   If they were unreliable, I'd be the first to hear it.

 

Speed only kills if you're ignorant of the danger and the details.  Speed is not synonymous with "reckless".

A rock-solid DAW isn't the result of guess-work, happen-stance, or dumb luck.  It's the result of knowledge/experience.

If you leave important details to chance, yes... that can absolutely bite you in the rear.

• A good doctor doesn't leave important details to chance
• A good lawyer doesn't leave important details to chance
• A good reporter doesn't leave important details to chance
• A good athlete doesn't leave important details to chance
• A world-class performer doesn't leave important details to chance

 

What Planet are you living on??????? I never even mentioned Clarrett interfaces. I pointed out tha you can't plug a Scarlett USB 2 into a USB 3 port and expect it to work.

I know NYC is considered a hick town in the recording industry, maybe that's why you would get laughed out of town by even mentioning Windows computers in a pro studio, and bitchslapped for bring up Presonus in ANY professional recording studio ANYWHERE, where, please sit down for this so you don't hurt yourself, they all use Macs PRO TOOLS "HD" AS THE INDUSTRY STANDARD which has absolutely NO support for Quantum interfaces.

 But PT HD doesn't support Scarlett USB 2 interfaces either, but loves Focusrite RedNet. ?

This conversation is over.

[Jim Roseberry]

FWIW, It's a good thing the conversation is over, when it comes to PCs, you really don't know what you're talking about.

[Steev]

Well now that we've gotten this far off topic I'd like to point the conversation to Behringer XR 18 Not only is it a digital mixer complete with 4 built in 40 bit floating point FX engines, about 50 high definition FX plugins, 16 Midas preamps, and an 18x18 USB 2 audio interface with ZERO latency monitoring with any DAW on any platform, remote control from any WiFi enabled device running Windows, Mac, Linux, Android or by standard ethernet cable, 5 pin MIDI, ROCK SOLID AND GREAT SOUNDING and only costs $500 (us).

 No special DAWs, computers, cables, or PCIe cards, or Ethernet routers required.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Steev

[mdiemer]

Great conversation, I love this stuff.  Musicians being musicians. and computer experts (if there is there such a thing anymore). I hope the mods aren't tempted to intervene. This kind of stuff pumps life into a forum like this. And it's quite tame compared to other places. Let the show go on!

[Michael Fogarty]

5 hours ago, Steev said:

Well now that we've gotten this far off topic I'd like to point the conversation to Behringer XR 18 Not only is it a digital mixer complete with 4 built in 40 bit floating point FX engines, about 50 high definition FX plugins, 16 Midas preamps, and an 18x18 USB 2 audio interface with ZERO latency monitoring with any DAW on any platform, remote control from any WiFi enabled device running Windows, Mac, Linux, Android or by standard ethernet cable, 5 pin MIDI, ROCK SOLID AND GREAT SOUNDING and only costs $500 (us).

 No special DAWs, computers, cables, or PCIe cards, or Ethernet routers required.

thanks for the input Steev. Do you use this machine you are referring to? Have you recorded with it? What type of converters does it have? Do you run cpu hogging programs like Omnisphere/Tape Emulation plugs and get good latency with it?

Was the OP asking for recommendations for a new interface/mixer for live applications?