Light Grenade Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 37 minutes ago, marled said: I tried this one, too! Sometimes it generates very strange spikes in the beginning of the clips and on certain ess sounds! Unusable IMO! Fortunately, I can't say I've ever experienced that, and I use it pretty relentlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Arwood Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 On 1/18/2023 at 9:43 AM, Jyri T. said: I have been looking for a plugin that easily does the following: Normalize a clip (or, better still, a bunch of individual clips) to, say, -20 LUFS. Easily meaning it uses some direct access like ARA (i.e. not needing any "listening" of the audio) and thus being easily used on a large group of clips. No luck. It should NOT be a big thing to code. So, the question remains, WHY IS IT NOT YET AVAILABLE IN CAKEWALK? I really don't understand why you can't bake it. Slava Ukraini! There are some plugins that could be used - SLGain Gain ($2.50) Hornet (Several to choose from), Waves - WLM Plus($29), Playlist rider($77), Vocal Rider($29), WA Production - Outlaw ($39), Nugen MasterCheck($199), LM-Correct($399!), Adobe Audition, Reaper,Audacity. "It should NOT be a big thing to code." To get an audio file to actually sound the same volume is very tricky. Different frequencies are louder at the same RMS and Peak. LUFS is supposed to take in consideration the Fletcher-Munson Curve. I have to use several plugins stacked in comping mode to make the takes close enough to only focus on the tone, pitch and performance. Vocal Rider, Outlaw, MasterCheck and Playlist rider. Waves MV2 is super good too. If you use plugins you would probably bounce the clips which will blend them into a single track. Probably not what you want. Check these Freebies too-> I have not used the Dynamic-Audio-Normalizer of the Volume-Normalizer-Master but, I have used The-Levelator. The-Levelator does not use LUFS but, is does bring low volume audio files to a very good volume level. You could drop your "audio" directory file in this. They will be renamed but, it shouldn't be too hard to copy the new file to your cakewalk project. https://www.videohelp.com/software/The-Levelator https://www.videohelp.com/software/Dynamic-Audio-Normalizer https://www.videohelp.com/software/Volume-Normalizer-Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) To me the word Normalize is refering to automatically adjusting peak levels not loudness. As said a million times before. Totally not the same thing. Peak level is easy to do with normalizing. Example As a starting point for complicated projects, say like a live band multitrack or a 60 track dialogue/narration recordings I will globally normalize the whole project to -6 db. As I said this is only a starting point and will often get me half way there. Loudness is a lot of work. There's no easy fix unless you are willing to pay for it and then pray the plug in doesn't create other issues. But compressors, limiters and analyzers are free and if you learn how to use them properly then you might now be most of way there. That last bit might actually require some manual editing which is a skill worth developing. By the way, what was with that -20db?? that's almost inaudible. most people work at between -14 to -6 db. Edited February 5, 2023 by John Vere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 11 hours ago, Max Arwood said: There are some plugins that could be used - SLGain Gain ($2.50) Hornet (Several to choose from), Waves - WLM Plus($29), Playlist rider($77), Vocal Rider($29), WA Production - Outlaw ($39), Nugen MasterCheck($199), LM-Correct($399!), Adobe Audition, Reaper,Audacity. "It should NOT be a big thing to code." To get an audio file to actually sound the same volume is very tricky. Different frequencies are louder at the same RMS and Peak. LUFS is supposed to take in consideration the Fletcher-Munson Curve. I have to use several plugins stacked in comping mode to make the takes close enough to only focus on the tone, pitch and performance. Vocal Rider, Outlaw, MasterCheck and Playlist rider. Waves MV2 is super good too. If you use plugins you would probably bounce the clips which will blend them into a single track. Probably not what you want. I understand what you mean. But IMO there is a kind of misunderstanding. There are 2 things that you can do with loudness levels: You can normalize SHORT clips (i.e. a single vocal phrase or short instrument takes) to a RMS or LUFS level to get a good starting point for mixing or comping. You can level the loudness flow of a whole song, track or a longer clip to a RMS or LUFS level. For the latter it makes sense to use compressors or leveling plugins. I do that, too. But the first idea above would be a great help for comping or rough volume adjustment, if it was supported by RMS/LUFS normalizing in the DAW. But I agree it only makes sense for short/shorter clips. 20 minutes ago, John Vere said: To me the word Normalize is refering to automatically adjusting peak levels not loudness. I agree with you that Normalize means that there is a certain volume change for the whole audio clip. But it is not required that the volume change is defined by a peak value IMHO. You can also specify a targeted LUFS or RMS value (as I have described above with my manual way to do it, or how the Reaper batch file converter does). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 On 2/5/2023 at 9:46 AM, marled said: I agree with you that Normalize means that there is a certain volume change for the whole audio clip. But it is not required that the volume change is defined by a peak value IMHO. You can also specify a targeted LUFS or RMS value (as I have described above with my manual way to do it, or how the Reaper batch file converter does). I guess the reason I say this is because in my experience if audio software ( DAW or Wave editors) has a normalization function, it seems to only adjust to a pre set peak level. In other words the settings are only speaking in terms of peak values and no mention of RMS or LUFS. And this function seems to always be a tool or Process like in Cakewalk not a plug in. I guess I think of normalization as a tool that works just like the volume fader. It only turns up or down the peak level. It's asset is that it will analyze the clip or whole song, and you can choose what the very highest value will be. Example we have a quiet track that seems to be peaking at around -16 db and we need it to be closer to - 6 db we could either use normalization or could have simply turned up the tracks gain by +10db. I am aware of plug ins that normalize to RMS levels. Then yes, the word Normalize can defiantly apply to RMS or LUFS but it's not very common and I've yet to see it built in to any of my audio software. It would have to involve compression and for that we have a lot of free options to choose from. So back to the OP idea of having the option of Normalizing to either Peak or a RMS values. That would be a nice option as a built in tool in audio software. I doubt if I myself would use it preferring to have more hands on with my compressors and limiters, but it would probably be very valuable to those who work with a lot of short clips they've scrounged from a lot of different sources. 50 free compressors - https://youtu.be/PLBxSGozIwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scook Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, John Vere said: I am aware of plug ins that normalize to RMS levels. Then yes, the word Normalize can defiantly apply to RMS or LUFS but it's not very common and I've yet to see it built in to any of my audio software. Normalize to Average RMS has been a part of SoundForge Pro for decades. It may not be in the entry level product though. Can't believe it is not in WaveLab. I have never bothered to check. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murat k. Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I read the whole conversation, I guess having a this kind of a thing in the Cakewalk seems solving the issue. On 1/22/2023 at 5:35 PM, marled said: In Reaper there is a "Batch File/Item Converter" that can apply a LUFS volume adjustment and/or any plugins to a batch of files. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, John Vere said: Then yes, the word Normalize can defiantly apply to RMS or LUFS but it's not very common and I've yet to see it built in to any of my audio software. As I have written it exists in Reaper's Batch File/Item Converter! 2 hours ago, John Vere said: It would have to involve compression ... I don't agree (and so do the Reaper developers)! This is exactly the difference, normalization means only gain change! A normalize to RMS or LUFS can just run like the current peak normalization, but instead of searching the highest peak to calculate the gain change, it would evaluate the current RMS or LUFS value of the clip and then apply a simple gain change to satisfy the defined target value. It is that simple! In Reaper there is also the additional goodie that you can enable a limiter to prevent possible clips. But this is not a requirement IMO. I would be happy just with a simple normalization! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, John Vere said: Example we have a quiet track that seems to be peaking at around -16 db and we need it to be closer to - 6 db we could either use normalization or could have simply turned up the tracks gain by +10db. In relation to your example above: If you have several quiet audio clips in the same track (not a single track clip), then it would be much better to normalize them to a RMS or LUFS value, instead of a peak value, because all should have about the same loudness! Also if there are passages that have different volume levels (happens often with vocals), then you could split the clip and apply RMS/LUFS normalization to the sections to get a fast volume adaptation. Wouldn't that be great? ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 yeah or use expansion and compression then apply effects. ? probably easy to cook up a two knob PC FX with the Sonitus compressor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Yes in my example it would most likely be just about anything but vocals or drums. Those definitely are the tricky buggers. But peak level normalization will work on material that is more sustained like crunched guitars and bass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyri T. Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 THIS is how you do it!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisionPoint Media Group Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) Audacity has an easy click process for RMS Normalization also called Loudness Normalization. Not sure why it's not in Cakewalk. Edited October 19, 2023 by VisionPoint Media Group Images didn't attach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyri T. Posted April 9 Author Share Posted April 9 And whattabout a function to normalize EXPORTS to a certain level in LUFS? That would be neat, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyri T. Posted April 9 Author Share Posted April 9 2 minutes ago, pwal³ said: ^^^^ this And your point is... what exactly? You DO have an option to normalize to a PEAK level in CW. I'm asking for an easy option to normalize clips/exports to a LUFS/RMS level. And yes, they ARE different things, thus the need to have different options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 going simpler - you set up a buss compressor, limiter, and loudness meter on your master - set it to get what you want, then export. probably could create a PC preset that loads that and in range within seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 5 minutes ago, pwal³ said: yeah but you'd listen to it first to get the balances right, right? oh, that's just crazy talk now ?of course you don't simply crank things up until you think you have the balance right. you can of course "mix into" your loudness setup so you're not shearing peoples hair off from too much "sizzle" and "air" as well as creating mud... or alternate things - mix quiet, check loud, mix quiet, check loud, etc etc and of course cross-check on as many systems as you have available - mono, car, VSX, cracked-door while in the kitchen, portable usb speaker, club PA, TV, TV + surround system, cellphone speaker. etc same way the Beatles did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 (edited) I guess it’s this “ I don’t want to learn about the craft of audio engineering, I just want to push a button and get the same results a well trained engineer would get”! Achieving a balanced , dynamic mix as well as achieving a target LUFS involves listening and skill. All an AI based plug in can do is squash your mix to oblivion. It’s like those Izotope plug ins always make my mix sound way worse than I can by using my ears and knowing what to do to get what I want. I’ve been mixing and mastering music for over 40 years and I’m still learning. Best new tool for me is the You Lean loudness meter. I’ll have to test the Sonar concrete limiter and see if it is as good as the Loud Max. Edited April 9 by John Vere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyri T. Posted April 10 Author Share Posted April 10 On 4/9/2024 at 4:44 PM, pwal³ said: ok, to engage politely, why would you rely on an export setting for such a thing? for a whole song, it's mastering step, for an individual track it will be affected by whatever song it's brought into, so will get changed anyway... and tbf i was if course thinking about the original definition of normalize rather than the more recent lufs/rms definition variations - lufs/rms should be used in context ?♀️ /goodluck and have fun To engage politely back atcha, I didn't know there are limitations for how you can/can't use Cakewalk. Many of us use CW for a variety of jobs, including mastering (or in my case, "mastering"). Altho you could use the normalization thingy for keeping different versions of mixes at the same level in order to avoid loudness bias when comparing "Song Final" w/ "Song Final Final" w/ "Song Final Final Final" w/ "Song Final Final Final Final" w/ "Song Final Final Final Final DEFINITELY FINAL". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 On 4/9/2024 at 7:58 AM, John Vere said: I’ll have to test the Sonar concrete limiter and see if it is as good as the Loud Max. I just did and it is actually even better. So now Sonar includes 2 first class brick wall limiters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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