Surround Export Inconsistent

[Terry Kelley]

I've been fighting to create some DVD-Audio 5.1 Surround mixes that will work.

1. I created a simple one track project, added an SS bus (Surround D), set the preferences to 5.1 music/alternative, point the single track to the Surround D bus, do some simple panning to move it around the circle and save the project.

2. I go to File, Export, Audio, set to Entire Mix, Multichannel, 48k/24bit. Export to a file. I set the Extra Encoding Option to 16 bit (Default) ... when this dialog shows up ...

3. Load it into DVDA-author. Do a burn, it works and creates an ISO.

4. Repeat step 2. The ISO create fails. Claims the audio is null and the bit depth is 0 and the file has 65535 channels (I assume it's rollover.)

5 Add a track to the project, and re-export. It works.

6. Repeat export with no changes. It fails.

Repeated exports are creating different results with zero changes. Once  file it good, it's always good so it's not DVDA-author being inconsistent. In addition, the Extra Encoding Option dialog doesn't always show up.

What is going on ... Without a DVD-A burn program you can't really test it. I have tried CDBurnerXP and it complained on a bad file too.

Edit: See below. The issue appears related to the number of tracks and the appearance (or lack of) the Extra Encoding Option Dialog

Edited July 8, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[Terry Kelley]

Does anyone know what makes the Extra Encoding Option dialog box show up? I have a single track file I'm working with and it shows up when I click on Export. With the same settings and export options, it won't show up on a multi-track file. This appears to be related to the issue of invalid export files. No dialog, no work.

[Terry Kelley]

Maybe someone can try this for me:

1. Take a large multi-track project (20 or more tracks if you have one. The more complicated the better.)

2. In Preferences/Project/Surround, select 5.1 Music/Alternative for the Surround Format and point the 6 outputs to your stereo hardware output. On mine I set

- Left to ASIO 1

- Right to ASIO 2

- Left Surround to ASIO 1

- Right Surround to ASIO 2

- Center to ASIO 1

- LFE to ASIO 2

- Apply and close Preferences

3. Insert a Surround Buss and point any audio or simple instrument track to the Surround Buss (on mine I get Surround D, E, or G depending on how many busses you already have.)

4, Go to File, Export, Audio and set:

Source Category -> Hardware output ( I have tried Entire Mix too but it selects both my Surround Main and ASIO Output and you can't deselect either but this doesn't change the outcome.)

Select Surround Main buss in Source Hardware

Select Multi-channel in Channel Format

Set the Sample Rate to 48000

Set the Bit Depth to 24

Enter a file name (Test SS, or something) and click Export.

Do you get the Extra Encoding Option Dialog? I don't.

But if I start with a simple project with one or two tracks, the dialog appears.

I'll send anyone a $1M that tries this. Once I get an extra million.

Even when the dialog doesn't show up, Cakewalk still creates the mulit-track file (I've confirmed it by loading them back into Cakewalk) but some data is missing or the format is wrong.

Terry

Edited July 8, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[Terry Kelley]

BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SELECT WAV (MICROSOFT), NOT WAVE FOR THE FILE FORMAT!

Somebody get a board and beat me with it!

Edited July 8, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[Ted K. Ling]

Board coming up ?  Is this still  a problem or is that the "fix" ?

[Terry Kelley]

For me, the issue is that you are given many options but no real explanation on which one to choose and when. I had to stumble through each one and there are a lot of them. I still think something is amiss but as long as I follow the above recipe, it works. However, adding and deleting tracks would switch it from working to not working depending on various choices.  Cakewalk itself would usually do what you asked for but the authoring software didn't like certain things. And if you are remixing a stereo project, don't leave the original main/master buss on there ...

So it works now but why the weirdness, is unknown. I can export stereo in the WAVE format and be fine but need to use WAV (Microsoft) for surround. Why? Trying to find some detailed info on surround mixing and format was also challenging. This isn't Cakewalk's fault. It's just not common information. Angle, focus, etc. and how they interact. And as you listen, it's not always what you expect or really what the definitions say.

I will say that Cakewalk tools are all pretty easy to work with for surround especially using stereo plugins on the various stereo pairs. Then you quickly learn to not overdo anything.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[Noel Borthwick]

No that looks like a bug in the program you are working with not properly understanding the Wavformat extensible format. I don't think this has anything to do with our export. Choosing Wav(microsoft) is simply choosing the libsndfile wave file writer rather than Cakewalk's built in one. There is probably some difference in the format that is confusing your encoder. I would log an issue with their support to find out why it fails.

[Terry Kelley]

7 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

No that looks like a bug in the program you are working with not properly understanding the Wavformat extensible format. I don't think this has anything to do with our export. Choosing Wav(microsoft) is simply choosing the libsndfile wave file writer rather than Cakewalk's built in one. There is probably some difference in the format that is confusing your encoder. I would log an issue with their support to find out why it fails.

Hi Noel,

I absolutely agree and didn't mean to imply it was Cakewalk's issue. The challenge was just figuring out what I really needed to do/use. In troubleshooting I kept simplifying and simplifying to see where things worked and then fell apart. Somewhere I switched to Microsoft Wav without noting it and went down a rabbit hole. Yeah, I might let them know what I am seeing but for now, it all works consistently when I am consistent. 

I certainly learned a lot about quad through 8.1 SS and how it works in Cakewalk.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Terry Kelley