Recording, Organising, mixing, mastering individual drum tracks .. best way?

[Twub]

I'm glad I found this thread.

Perhaps you pros can help me.

I'm Cakewalk-ignorant and desperate. I have a hundred hours of frustration in this so far and really was about to give up.

Is there a character limit on these posts? This might take a while...

Me:

Long time rock drummer, currently trying to record (remotely) with my band. It was my idea to record with CW, about three months ago. None of us knew squat about the software. 

I'm using a Roland TD-17 (with two outputs) that is (very recently) USBd to the PC for the MIDI input as well as a Scarlett Solo that's taking both audio "outs" from the Roland, and of course a PC, to put my tracks down, and I just jumped in and figured I would learn by doing. And I did. 

We've gotten to the point with our recording process where we're seeing good tracks and fidelity and it's all very exciting.

These are audio tracks.

I've spent years tweaking and EQing my kits within the module, and they sound great. Cakewalk can make things sound better yet with it's EQ feature. I've a couple more freq-bands available in Cakewalk.

But as you guys are aware, I have no mix-control over my individual snare, toms, rims, cymbals, and if I've got an otherwise great track recorded, but man...the damn hi-hat pedal is too loud throughout the entire thing, punching-in isn't feasible.

I must go back, adjust levels or sensitivity at the module, redo the track and hope I got it right.

(and I never get it right after the 1st redo so, on and on it goes)

That's how I've been doing things for a few months.

So...

I thought MIDI recording would maybe allow me some control over all my triggers individually, but I am LOST without a compass.

Even now, I don't even know if what I want to do here is POSSIBLE.

All I want to do here is mix my kit while listening to the rest of the guitars, bass and vocals  -like I had my old Slingerlands set up and was 10 channels into the snake at a live-gig soundcheck.

Not at all interested in quantizing. Don't need it.

Don't know ANYTHING about Cakewalk Buss assignments or track folders, as I've seen mentioned here.

I just don't know enough about Cakewalk.

(or, you know, sound-engineering in general)

I don't know the nomenclature either.

That's a big handicap.

YouTube tutorials deal almost exclusively with "creating beats" with the SI kit in Cakewalk. 

It seems no one who's an actual drummer has contributed anything to these myriad tutorials.

Things I BELIEVE I've learned so far...

Could someone deny or confirm:

I cannot "record" each trigger to their own seperate tracks. 

eg: Play the drumline for Hendrix's "Manic Depression" from start to finish and have individual tracks for snare, individual toms, and individual cymbals each record their respective strikes when I hit those pads.

(I can't believe, with MIDI, that Events from specific triggers cannot be "assigned" to individual tracks, in advance, to record those events as they occur.)

But if that's really true, that's not a deal-breaker as long as I can SOMEHOW assign adjustments and equalization to the individual toms, etc., after the fact.

I know how to get E drums sounding like the end of the world thru Subs and Tops. Even a simple two-output module like mine, but it seems that's all I know.

Also, it seems I cannot use those beautiful, carefully EQd kits in the Roland, and must use sounds I acquire elsewhere. Essentially I must start over with my overall sound.

OK, if I have to do it that way, fine.

At this rate, I won't live long enough to figure this stuff out on my own.

I just want to break my kit up into tracks, and be able to record, then mix the kit's components, cut or raise a level here or there, maybe erase an accidental rim-shot, then get the project back up into Google Drive so the other guys and girls can take the next steps in recording their parts.

That's it.

Just like we've been doing with all Audio, for a while.

Just... now the drummer is utilizing MIDI and can mix his drums like a grownup.

I thought it would be simple.

(smirk)

Well, I didn't really think that, but I was ready to take it on.

I didn't expect to get totally stymied without any resources to help me. I wasn't prepared for that.

I'm just about to the point of losing sleep over this seemingly overwhelming issue.

I don't even know what I DO  know or DON'T know.

But if this sort of thing is possible, and a no-brainer to you guys, my apologies in advance for probably rehashing an old, old issue and thread, but you all could save my life if you could steer me straight.

Cause I don't know where to start.

I'm not kidding. You could make my freaking year with some guidance.

 

Very sincerely,

-David

 

 

 

[HOOK]

To boil this down, you want to be able to record midi drums and then control each sound individually, on individual tracks....right?

100% possible with Cakewalk...people, myself included,  do it every day.  You'll record all the midi to a single track (you can still edit every single midi hit on any drum from there in the midi editor) and assign outputs from your drum VST to additional tracks where you can compress, eq, pan, use sends for aux fx busses, etc.  All that.  The best of both worlds....the ability to edit a live drummer.  It's fantastic.

And I know you say you have no need for quantizing.  But you can do that too.

I use Steven Slate Drums and have it set to output sounds to individual tracks for kick, snare, toms, HH, ride, OH and rooms.

[57Gregy]

42 minutes ago, Twub said:

I've spent years tweaking and EQing my kits within the module, and they sound great.

I assume then that those are the sounds you want to use, not some software drum synthesizer.
I also use my hardware sounds for drums and other instruments.
I drag each drum instrument's note line (i.e., snare, high hat...) to a separate MIDI track, output to my hardware, then solo each instrument in turn, playing back and recording the hardware's output to an audio track. Bouncing a soft synth is a thousand times faster, though*.
So, I end up with each drum on a separate audio track and each can be tweaked to your heart's content.

*Using software synths, there is an option to have each drum's audio output on their own tracks, so you can bounce/freeze the tracks as desired.

[Twub]

Hi Hook!

Thank you for responding.

I feel the weight dropping off a bit here and have some hope. (For the 1st time in a while)

Making these recordings with my band is a very, very big deal to me.

So, recording to individual tracks isn't doable. Got it.

And I must use a VST plug in, because my Roland sounds no longer apply.

Check.

So I don't need to "un-tweak" any of my Roland sounds. I'm going to do all that with the VST, right?

The Roland just records events, right?

(Hey, I warned you in advance I'm out of my depth) 

I have no direct experience in my limited time in Cakewalk in assigning outputs.

In other words, I don't yet know how to do the process you've described.

I have seen Mike from Creative Sauce doing a bit of that. But he's creating and utilizing a drum map to get this done. Must I do that? Create a drum map?

Is there anything I should know about getting and installing Steven Slate?

..and I've got a guy at Sweetwater trying to sell me EZ Drummer. Are the premium VSTs worth it? I understand they have more sounds. 

Quantizing...well I suppose I would do it as a last resort, but I don't know what circumstances there'd have to be. I'd have to be pretty far off the count, right? That's not drumming if that's going on.

I'm happy to learn about it though. 

[HOOK]

David...Greg's way would definitely work for you if you wanted to go that route.

[Twub]

17 minutes ago, 57Gregy said:

I drag each drum instrument's note line (i.e., snare, high hat...) to a separate MIDI track, output to my hardware, then solo each instrument in turn, playing back and recording the hardware's output to an audio track.

You mean you just play the snare, or Tom 1, etc, in turn thru repeated replays until the track finishes?

I could never do that with Rush's "Tom Sawyer". I don't have that ordered of a mind.

I have no idea how you manage that. <hat's off>

For me that would be impossible.

[HOOK]

But to further answer your question.  You'd would need to create a map for your kit and the VST drum plugin of your choice.  Creating a map sounds daunting, and indeed is, the first time if you've never done it.  I learned how on YouTube...just like you're trying to.

I prefer the VST because your midi events are still triggering samples.  You can change your mind (and sounds) easily as the mix progresses.  The drum sounds that you think work great for live performance may not sit in a mix the way you think they will when it comes to a studio recording.  You never know...and options might be your friend.

[HOOK]

4 minutes ago, Twub said:

You mean you just play the snare, or Tom 1, etc, in turn thru repeated replays until the track finishes?

I could never do that with Rush's "Tom Sawyer". I don't have that ordered of a mind.

I have no idea how you manage that. <hat's off>

For me that would be impossible.

No.  I think what he's suggesting is that you record your part until you like it.  Then you can send the midi data for each drum back to the drum brain, one drum at a time, and record the sounds coming off the brain, one at a time to individual tracks.

[57Gregy]

7 minutes ago, Twub said:

You mean you just play the snare, or Tom 1, etc, in turn thru repeated replays until the track finishes?

I could never do that with Rush's "Tom Sawyer". I don't have that ordered of a mind.

I have no idea how you manage that. <hat's off>

For me that would be impossible.

No, I record the drum MIDI in, all at the same time, drag each MIDI drum data line to its own MIDI track, then record the audio output from the module for each drum in turn to its own audio track. 
The drums are recorded live as MIDI , then recorded as audio afterward. Takes some time. 

[Twub]

Oh. OK. 

So "solo" the instruments means using the "Solo" button on the track?

Wow. This all sounds fantastic. Really, truly. 

If only I knew how to do it...

[Twub]

5 minutes ago, 57Gregy said:

No, I record the drum MIDI in, all at the same time, drag each MIDI drum data line to its own MIDI track, then record the audio output from the module for each drum in turn to its own audio track. 
The drums are recorded live as MIDI , then recorded as audio afterward. Takes some time. 

 

It can't take any more time than I've spent so far.

I've been having fun finding isolated vocals where I can and cutting them up to fit the count. That takes some time for sure. So far I've had Jim Morrison, Scott Weiland, John Fogarty, Benjamin Orr, Ronnie James Dio and Paul Stanley all sitting in with my band. The results are great, but it does take time.

I'd love to see 'somewhere' a walk-through of this process you describe. I'm no worse than anyone else in getting it, once I see it done.

I think I am worse at this point in understanding where to find the menus, and drop-downs that enable this. Like I said, I've just done simple audio tracks here.

It's wonderful to know it can be done, that's for sure, but I still am floundering as to how to go about it.

Knowing it CAN be done is a big help though. 

 

 

[Twub]

Anyway, the bottom line about my sounds is, I'm not married to them. I don't gig with this kit anyway. 

And sure, an EQ for live performances can sound like (and probably WILL) sound totally wrong in a studio recording.

Greg described his way of recording his OWN drum sounds, from his module, yes?

If a VST that I have to tweak

(that's no big deal doing that by the way. That's fun)

streamlines this individual tracking process, then sign me up for that.

Is that the case?

[HOOK]

Yes.  Greg's method will get you the sounds you're used to from your Roland brain.

A VST will probably require you building a kit that you love.   There are a lot of great VST drums in the wild that people swear by.  I just happen to own the Slate Drums - which works great for me.  I think any VST3 drum kit will allow you to send all sounds out to individual tracks where you can mix traditionally.

If you're using an electronic kit, I can't imagine not using a VST for simplicity and flexibility all the way through songwriting, tracking and mixing.

[Twub]

1 hour ago, HOOK said:

If you're using an electronic kit, I can't imagine not using a VST for simplicity and flexibility all the way through songwriting, tracking and mixing.

OK, I'm sold.

I just went to Steven Slate and got the free kit(s) and Library.

Only, as is typical, I can't get Cakewalk to list the new plug in.

It said something about choosing the path that your DAW liked.

Having zero idea on how to find that out, I went with the path prompted.

I mean, I know where the stuff is, but this supposedly should show up in the Cakewalk plug-ins listing and it ain't.

 

[57Gregy]

2 hours ago, Twub said:

OK, I'm sold.

I just went to Steven Slate and got the free kit(s) and Library.

Only, as is typical, I can't get Cakewalk to list the new plug in.

It said something about choosing the path that your DAW liked.

Having zero idea on how to find that out, I went with the path prompted.

I mean, I know where the stuff is, but this supposedly should show up in the Cakewalk plug-ins listing and it ain't.

 

I do use that method to record my keyboard's sounds, drums and other instruments.
However, a soft synth will be much quicker in terms of getting the audio to the speakers. It is audio! ?

If you took note of where the SS synth was downloaded, you will have to add that location to the Cakewalk VST scan list so it can find them.

 

[HOOK]

You'll find Slate Drums shows up in Cakewalk as instrument or a soft synth - not your typical plugin, like an effect.  You have to load it like you would a VST instrument.  Info on that is in the manual and there are loads of videos on YouTube that can assist.

I realize this is all a foreign language to you.  It was to me too at one point.  It looks like a long, dark road...but it's not as long as you think.  I promise - if you get it set up and save it as a template your problems will be solved and you can just get on with making music.

This video will be relevant when you get there:

 

[HOOK]

This will also come in handy.

 

 

[Twub]

2 hours ago, HOOK said:

You'll find Slate Drums shows up in Cakewalk as instrument or a soft synth - not your typical plugin, like an effect.

This is as far as I've gotten so far. I'm stalled again at this point.  

  

[Glenn Stanton]

next - go to your synth rack (Alt+9) and add it

my preference is separate MIDI and Audio tracks but do whatever works for you

load the drum kit you want and then add your MIDI sequence for the drums - drag and drop grooves, manual entry, step sequence, etc etc

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Glenn Stanton

[HOOK]

You've found the VST instrument.  Cakewalk knows it's there.  That's good.

You need to watch this.  Between the manual,  this video, the previous two videos and the videos you referenced by Creative Sauce, you should be able to figure it out.  

This video shows you how to get the VST instrument into a track and how to set it up.  Not Slate...but same basic idea.