How about an update for the record button?

[Lynn Wilson]

Would it be possible to add indicator lights or buttons for the 3 record modes so that they are in plain sight on the control panel?  I've many times erased data because I was in overwrite mode and not comp or sound-on-sound mode and didn't realize it.  I make it a habit, now, to check before I start, but indicator buttons or lights in track view (like the ripple edit button) would make life much better.  I'm glad we have a right click option, but it's easy to forget if you come back to a project on a different day and can't use the undo function.  A safety valve, so to speak.

Thanks CW for listening! 

[scook]

The record button in the transport module already indicates the record mode. While waiting for an additional indicator, consider using the theme editor to modify the record button images to make the record mode more obvious.

[Lynn Wilson]

Yes, they are there and do indicate which mode you're in.  I guess, I wish that I could click on them and change modes without doing the right click first.  I will take advantage of your suggestion to use the theme editor to highlight them.  Thanks, Steve.

[Lord Tim]

It does, but only when the module is in Large mode. When it's in Small mode, there's no indicator. That can also be fixed in the Theme Editor too, which I regularly do. It'd be nice if it came like that by default though.

[Lynn Wilson]

Wow, I didn't know that!  I forgot there was any difference between large and small modes, but I'll check it out.  Thanks, Tim!

[Starship Krupa]

On 4/6/2019 at 12:36 PM, Lynn said:

I've many times erased data because I was in overwrite mode

That must mean that you sometimes use Overwrite mode. I have been trying for a long time to find someone who uses that mode so that I can ask them (you) some questions.

A large part of my confusion about the mode comes from trying to figure out recording modes from the Documentation page, which is vague and contradictory on the subject. Even with the Reference Guide, which is much better, I still can't quite figure out how it's supposed to work and why I would want to use it instead of Comping mode.

I can't figure out if it's supposed to be a destructive mode or what. When I experimented with it on audio, I think it created full WAV files just like the other modes, but deleted some previous clips using rules that I couldn't figure out. Is that the way it's supposed to work (I don't mean the not being able to figure out the rules part, obviously)?

If that's how it's supposed to work, I guess I would want to use it in cases where I want to record new information but don't want to have to delete the old clips before I start? Or where I know ahead of time that the last take is going to be the keeper and don't want to have to delete the previous takes?

It just seems like a big and dangerous thing to have around just to avoid having to select and delete some clips.

If it is destructive, and deletes and crops the WAV file after the recording is done, again, seems dangerous just to save what is now very cheap disk space.

There was once when I was testing it and some very strange behavior happened, but I think that was a bug, not a feature.

There are probably other reasons for using it that I just don't see, or maybe I don't understand how it's supposed to work, so if you can fill me in, please do. I want to make full use of the program. Every other time I've brought it up, if people even answer at all it's to say that they never use the mode.

[msmcleod]

2 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

That must mean that you sometimes use Overwrite mode. I have been trying for a long time to find someone who uses that mode so that I can ask them (you) some questions.

A large part of my confusion about the mode comes from trying to figure out recording modes from the Documentation page, which is vague and contradictory on the subject. Even with the Reference Guide, which is much better, I still can't quite figure out how it's supposed to work and why I would want to use it instead of Comping mode.

I can't figure out if it's supposed to be a destructive mode or what. When I experimented with it on audio, I think it created full WAV files just like the other modes, but deleted some previous clips using rules that I couldn't figure out. Is that the way it's supposed to work (I don't mean the not being able to figure out the rules part, obviously)?

If that's how it's supposed to work, I guess I would want to use it in cases where I want to record new information but don't want to have to delete the old clips before I start? Or where I know ahead of time that the last take is going to be the keeper and don't want to have to delete the previous takes?

It just seems like a big and dangerous thing to have around just to avoid having to select and delete some clips.

If it is destructive, and deletes and crops the WAV file after the recording is done, again, seems dangerous just to save what is now very cheap disk space.

There was once when I was testing it and some very strange behavior happened, but I think that was a bug, not a feature.

There are probably other reasons for using it that I just don't see, or maybe I don't understand how it's supposed to work, so if you can fill me in, please do. I want to make full use of the program. Every other time I've brought it up, if people even answer at all it's to say that they never use the mode.

I feel the same to be honest.

Thankfully, for the most part I do things in one take, or if I don't like it I CTRL+Z and do it again.

But I do get confused with it. Sometimes I think I've nailed it, then it confuses me again.

I must spend some more time with it and document it so I'll remember! If I do get around to writing something up, I'll share it with everyone.

[Starship Krupa]

4 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I must spend some more time with it and document it so I'll remember! If I do get around to writing something up, I'll share it with everyone.

Mark, if you also don't quite "get" Overwrite mode, I definitely feel better about my own confusion. And looking forward to your findings.

It's not lost on me that the first person I've seen who seems to have experience with overwrite mode says that being in that mode by accident caused them to lose data.

[msmcleod]

43 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Mark, if you also don't quite "get" Overwrite mode, I definitely feel better about my own confusion. And looking forward to your findings.

It's not lost on me that the first person I've seen who seems to have experience with overwrite mode says that being in that mode by accident caused them to lose data.

The confusion for me, is that some of the options seem to be functionally equivalent, or at least only very subtly different, depending on what recording mode/options you use. So I'm never totally confident that I've picked the right one.

Take Sound on Sound vs Overwrite for instance. If I'm set to loop, and I've Auto Punch to the same selection with "Mute Previous Takes" on, and Store as separate lanes:

• Sound on Sound - Records each take in a different lane, previous takes cannot be heard during recording, but all lanes are active and will play together once recording stops.
• Overwrite - Records each take in a different lane, previous takes cannot be heard during recording, only the last lane is active and only this will play once recording stops.

However, in both cases using the smart comp tool (i.e. clicking the lower half of a clip), will result in only that clip being the active one. So the end result in this case is exactly the same.

But if I didn't use the smart comp tool, in either case, right clicking on Clip Mute/Unmute can obtain the same results in both cases, so:

• Takes recorded in Overwrite - Clip Mute/Unmute can be used to make all lanes playable, just as if they were recorded in Sound on Sound mode.
• Takes recorded in SoS - Clip Mute/Unmute can be used to make all but the last lane silent, just as if they were recorded in overwrite mode.

So the differences are subtle, but knowing what each one does can speed up your workflow depending on what state you want your clip lanes to be in after recording.

This is good in a way, because in most cases you're only a few clicks away from getting exactly the same result regardless of what recording mode you selected.

I've identified 48 different option combinations for each recording mode (that's ignoring Multi-track grouping & Allowing Arm Changes), so that's 144 different combinations in total.... a lot to go through!

[Lynn Wilson]

Guys, the 3 record modes each have their own use and make perfect sense to me.  Overwrite mode is just like using a tape recorder, where you record over a previous take.  Comp mode is just what it says; nothing is lost, just recorded on different lanes within a single track to be comped later.  Sound on sound allows you to record multiple takes on the same track, thus combing them.  This is useful for stacking vocals, or recording different parts of a drum kit one at a time on the same track.  For me, I've discovered that I record faster using the overwrite mode instead of the comp mode.  That way I don't have to go back later and "flatten" a track or erase unused tracks.  This suits me because I usually get a take in 1 to 3 tries, but for others, use what is most comfortable for you.  Carry on...

[Starship Krupa]

In your examples above, wouldn't Comping mode also give you the exact same results as Overwrite mode?

One thing is, you mention this is while you have Auto Punch engaged, which I only turn on when I'm punching in. You have it set to Mute Previous Takes, thereby nullifying Sound on Sound's main characteristic, which is allowing you to play or sing along with the previous take(s).

In my experience, where you would experience a whole lot of difference with Overwrite mode vs. the other two is if at any point in the tracking process you manually stopped the transport and restarted it. Then Overwrite would start acting like like The Reaper. No, not REAPER, but The Grim Reaper, in that whatever you had recorded previously would now be done away with as the new tracking advanced.

In the initial tracking process, Overwrite acts just like Comping mode, and it will happily stack take after take into new lane after new lane as I let it loop away. Overwrite creates new empty lanes, and it treats empty lanes just like Comping mode does, it records into them. Where Comping mode differs is that if there's already a lane there with data in it, Comping mode politely creates a new lane for it and leaves the existing data alone. Overwrite seizes the lane for its own and plows through whatever was there.

They also differ in that when tracking stops, if the last take is shorter than its predecessors, with Comping mode the previous takes will be split into two clips along the right edge of the last take. Sometimes other unfortunate things will happen, and there used to be more of them and they were worse, but then some of them were determined to be bugs and those were fixed so it's better now.

[msmcleod]

30 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

In your examples above, wouldn't Comping mode also give you the exact same results as Overwrite mode?

One thing is, you mention this is while you have Auto Punch engaged, which I only turn on when I'm punching in. You have it set to Mute Previous Takes, thereby nullifying Sound on Sound's main characteristic, which is allowing you to play or sing along with the previous take(s).

In my experience, where you would experience a whole lot of difference with Overwrite mode vs. the other two is if at any point in the tracking process you manually stopped the transport and restarted it. Then Overwrite would start acting like like The Reaper. No, not REAPER, but The Grim Reaper, in that whatever you had recorded previously would now be done away with as the new tracking advanced.

In the initial tracking process, Overwrite acts just like Comping mode, and it will happily stack take after take into new lane after new lane as I let it loop away. Overwrite creates new empty lanes, and it treats empty lanes just like Comping mode does, it records into them. Where Comping mode differs is that if there's already a lane there with data in it, Comping mode politely creates a new lane for it and leaves the existing data alone. Overwrite seizes the lane for its own and plows through whatever was there.

They also differ in that when tracking stops, if the last take is shorter than its predecessors, with Comping mode the previous takes will be split into two clips along the right edge of the last take. Sometimes other unfortunate things will happen, and there used to be more of them and they were worse, but then some of them were determined to be bugs and those were fixed so it's better now.

Yes, there's a big difference between them when stopping and restarting recording.

This accounts for half of my 144 combinations  - i.e. whether you're loop recording, or stopping/starting.

The combinations I'm looking at for Comping / Sound on Sound / Overwrite are:

• Loop Record / Record+Stop+Record+Stop
• Auto Punch On / Off
• (Auto Punch On only) Auto Punch Mute Previous Takes On/Off
• Store Takes in a Single Track / Store Takes in Separate Tracks
• Create New Lanes of Overlap On/Off
• New Takes on Top On/Off

There's 48 combinations of the list above for each of the 3 recording modes. So 144 in total.

I'm now questioning how useful documenting such a list would be... it's a bit overwhelming.

[Starship Krupa]

3 minutes ago, Lynn said:

Overwrite mode is just like using a tape recorder, where you record over a previous take.

Thanks for taking the trouble to help ease my confusion, Lynn.

I get that it's supposed to mimic "taping over" previously recorded material, what I don't understand is what happens to the underlying WAV files that are getting "erased." I know the clips go away, I've seen that in action, but what about the actual recorded data? Is it a destructive process?

7 minutes ago, Lynn said:

I've discovered that I record faster using the overwrite mode instead of the comp mode.  That way I don't have to go back later and "flatten" a track or erase unused tracks.  This suits me because I usually get a take in 1 to 3 tries, but for others, use what is most comfortable for you.

Okay, so it is to avoid hassle, for people who, once they nail a take, they know they are only going to want to use that last one, and don't want to retain any previous takes for comping purposes or anything else.

And it is, as I suspected, a dangerous thing to turn on, because you yourself have accidentally "overwritten" stuff that you had intended to keep. Tradeoff between convenience and safety, I suppose.

One of the reasons I wasn't sure about it is because in most cases I do wish to keep a few previous takes for possible comping (I'm not an accomplished enough player and singer to expect full-length flub-free takes with regularity and certainty), and the extra trouble of culling unwanted clips (one click per take if I just delete the whole lane) is worth it for safety purposes. I'm absent-minded enough that Overwrite mode would make quick work of any previously-recorded material, so much so that after having it on for a couple of hours, all of my lanes on every track would have been replaced by howls, screams, and swearing.

By "erase unused tracks," I assume you mean deleting lanes (and the clips in them) containing unwanted takes.

What do you mean by "flattening" a track? Cakewalk has a way to flatten a comped track, where it moves the various clips that make up a comped track into one lane, but it sounds like you're working with full takes in this situation, not comped ones.

[Lynn Wilson]

As for what happens to recorded data that's overwritten, you'd have to ask someone like scook that question.  However, there's a command to clean audio files which implies that the data remains in an audio file until that file is cleaned.

I use overwrite mode because I'm used to making decisions quick, and I record a part until I'm satisfied.  If I err or accidentally overwrite a part I resort to using the undo command which is my best friend.  These are relics of having recorded on tape for 40 years.  I do use sound-on-sound mode to stack vocals or other parts.  Your definition of "flattening" is the same as mine, though I don't always use full takes, I just prefer punching in a part on the spot until I like it.  Thanks for asking.

[scook]

Off hand IDK.

Can't recall ever overwriting a clip but as pointed out above there are a lot of different ways to set up for recording.

If I had to guess, the clips are likely still in the audio folder.

That said it should be easy to test with a new project and a signle track recorded using what ever method creates the overwrite condition.

For me, experimentation is a great learning tool. I am more likely to remember something learned through experimentation than any other method.

[chuckebaby]

17 hours ago, Lynn said:

I've discovered that I record faster using the overwrite mode instead of the comp mode....  This suits me because I usually get a take in 1 to 3 tries

Same here,

probably because we were raised using multitrack tape and this seems to be the direct approach.

I am a huge fan of Roy Thomas Baker and his huge background vocals (Producer for "Queen", The Cars", "The Darkness").

That is where I use Overwrite mode just as Lynn mentioned... To stack vocals.