Volume taper not happening on two MIDI tracks

[Michael McBroom]

I've run into this before and the only solution I've found was using the brute force approach, engaging the Write Enable Parameter to cut the volume. I often apply a volume taper at the end of a piece so the sound just tapers off to nothing.

Well, this piece I'm currently working on, I've activated the CC Volume control in the Piano Roll and drew the tapers -- like I always do with other MIDI tracks, even other MIDI tracks in this same piece. But for some reason, these two tracks are resistant. I even went to the brute force approach, enabling the Write function, and even it didn't reduce the volume. That was a surprise. I've never had that happen before.

I'm thinking there's probably some obscure parameter that was set (accidentally) on these two tracks, which is causing this problem. But I haven't a clue what it would be, since their parameters appear identical to other tracks that are behaving normally.

Got any ideas?

[John Vere]

So is what your saying is when you draw a fade out on the Instrument track ( audio, not midi)  it is there,  but the instrument does not respond?  

Here's an example. I drew a fade out in both a midi track and an Instrument track. The midi track I used the W and the track fader, The instrument track I opened the envelope lane and drew 2 nodes. Interesting the midi track envelope doesn't show in the event list  or the PVR under CC7? But both move the corresponding track faders.  

Edited November 29, 2020 by John Vere

[bitflipper]

Volume automation will always work on the audio track, but there are legitimate reasons why someone might want to do the automation in MIDI instead. 

How I'm reading the OP is that there are two instruments that aren't responding to CC7. I can think of a couple scenarios where that might happen. Most likely is that the instrument is designed to use CC11 rather than CC7 for volume. I have a several Kontakt instruments that work that way. Some of them won't even make any sound at all until you put in at least one CC11 event. A less-likely scenario is that CC7 has been reassigned, either by design or by accident. And of course there's always the possibility that automation has been inadvertently disabled on those tracks (make sure the Automation Read button is lit).

[LarsF]

Touching fader on pure midi tracks will send CC7, so easy to test how it responds.
It does as you move fader, and do resend last value once starting transport after touching it.

After sending it once starting transport it never sends again starting/stopping - it is considered done - and equipment should know it current value.

I did a full walktrhough for myself what happends with various midi CC, some like pan and reverb are always sent every start transport and some are like latch type as volume CC7
https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/topic/11252-midi-fader-gainvelocity-offset-pan-chorus-reverb-this-big-resource-how-it-works/&tab=comments#comment-99629

[Michael McBroom]

Hey, thanks guys for your helpful advice. It is much appreciated.

John, actually I tried the taper first with just MIDI, then I used the write function, which I'm guessing is audio?  I didn't try the taper on an audio track.

Bitflipper, I tried your suggestions, starting with the easiest. Read Automation was already toggled on, so I tried it both ways. DIdn't make a difference. The instruments I was attempting to control were the french horn selections in  the first bank of TTS-1 -- two tracks worth -- really pretty vanilla stuff. Dunno why the program would respond to them differently. I've never used CC 11 before, so I thought I'd go ahead and give it a go. And whadyaknow? It worked! Not real clear why "expression" should handle a volume taper when "volume" doesn't.

Lars, I'll check out that link. Thanks.

 

[John Vere]

I guess with the TTS-1 you would have to have it set to output all 16 tracks to automate the audio. But Seems Dave figured out why the midi didn't work. Good to know as I never have used 11. 

[bitflipper]

CC11 and CC7 are both defined as volume controls. The MIDI spec does spell it out clearly, but instrument developers often stray from the official spec in order to suit the dynamics of a particular instrument. Some want CC11 to have a dramatic effect, some want it to be subtle. Others completely ignore CC11.

I've seen these controllers implemented in three different ways:

• CC7 is a full volume control where 0 is silence and 127 is maximum volume, and it's the only volume controller
• CC11 replaces CC7 and works exactly as above
• (Most common) CC7 and CC11 are additive. Sometimes CC11 will be scaled, serving as a fine volume control with less effect on volume than CC7 . This is common with orchestral libraries, where CC11 is intended to be used for swells and decrescendos. It's also useful to note that usually, CC11's effect is to lower volume, i.e.  CC11 cannot make it louder than CC7 says it should be, only quieter. That means CC11 at zero might result in silence. However, I have instruments where CC11 only makes small adjustments to volume and cannot silence the instrument completely, in which case forgetting to set CC11 merely results in a quieter - not silent - instrument.

I was unaware that TTS-1 used Expression this way (ya learn something new every day if you're lucky!), because I usually automate volume on the audio track, only automating CC11 on certain Kontakt string and orchestral libraries.

 

[LarsF]

If OP got expression pedal - that is usually CC11, so can also be easily tested what instrument respond to.
Run fader on midi track - CC7.
Move expression pedal - CC11.

So either or both can be part of how it responds, as Bitflipper mentioned.

I avoid medling with CC7 as much as corona, can result in unwanted changes if fader is ever touched.
Some synths have VCA amount on CC7, like Nordlead as one.
Best to disable it in daw.

[sjoens]

Trying TTS-1 and other VSTi's with cc11 but it seems to have no affect here at all.

[msmcleod]

My experience of CC7 vs CC11 on GM type instruments is...

CC7 (Volume) - affects the volume of the channel only for any new notes played after the CC7 is sent. Notes that are already playing are unaffected.
CC11 (Expression) - affects the volume of the channel while notes are still playing, but only up to the volume set by CC7.  In other words, if CC7 is set to 80, then a CC11 of 127 will mean a max volume of 80.

For hardware instruments, CC7 is fairly widely supported, but not in all modes - e.g. multi-type modes might accept it, but single or combi (performance) modes may not.

CC7 isn't as widely supported on soft synths, as people generally control the audio output volume instead.

CC11 isn't as widely supported on either hardware or software synths, and it isn't always mapped to controlling volume (even though the MIDI spec says it should be).

If you're using soft synths though, consider using audio volume instead.

 

[LarsF]

IMO most common for CC11 is to add to velocity - so it also affects timbre of the sound.
Something like a percentige added to velocity to a max of 127 on velocity of course.
(CC11/127)+ velocity or something.

Nordlead synths handle CC7 as gain amount on amp envelope and tells overall volume on a preset.
Using high resonance settings in filter usually give volume is scaled down not to clip digitally.
So gain can compensate for that, within headroom of course.

Hammond use expression as pure volume, but you can select if pre- or post- amp section affecting saturation etc.
But you usually don't use velocity, it's fixed, as playing organ, so used extensively compared to like a piano or something.
Part of playing style of organ.

In Dimension Pro you have to assign midi CC to something as I recall.