Loop Construction into Sampler?

[Maestro]

On 12/11/2020 at 5:34 AM, Will_Kaydo said:

Yes, but what if you can hit both birds with one stone? 

Sitala plus an Editor? Sitala as the sampler (Drum machine) and loop construction as the editor? 

Or . . .

Sitala as both.

I like that idea more. 

That idea makes no sense (no meant to be offensive).  Sitala is not an Audio Editor.  It's a really weak, but free, Drum Sample player.  Think SI-Drums, with the ability to load your own Samples into it.  That's basically what Sitala is, and it has practically no sound design capabilities beyond extremely basic stuff that anything else includes.  Who is going to turn Sitala into an "actual" Sampler?  It isn't even close to the stock drum plugins that come with other DAWs.  That is not to knock the developers.  It just isn't an attractive solution - especially when alternatives that are substantially better are routinely very cheap (cause we live in times where companies are almost inventing holidays to have promotional pricing ono their products).

A Drum Machine and a Sampler are not the same thing.

Currently, Loop Construction is a Cakewalk Clone of the ACID Pro Chopper.  That would need to be thoroughly revamped to become a Sample Editor.  They'd probably opt to just create a different editor altogether.  I don't like the workflow with External Editors.  They can make improvements to that which could make it good enough that it is palatable in lieu of a full in-built sample editor.  That is probably easier.  As long as I don't have to manually bounce 30 clips to avoid the DAW sending the entire file (instead of the part in the clip) to the audio editor, we can add registered "WaveEditor" applicaitons to the clip context menu, that would be good enough to start (for me, at least).

On Sitala...  Sitala is a very mediocre drum sample player.  It is not a Sampler.  It isn't even close to a sampler.   Lots of producers lay their drum samples out on in the arranger as clips, so that is not really fixing some "deficiency" in Cakewalk by BandLab.  To most, this is probably a complete non-factor - lots go straight to Battery or some other plugin over even very decent stock offerings.  However, there are very few great third party "Samplers" on the market.

This does get me thinking, though...  What do people consider a "Sampler," because maybe what I think people are referring to is not what they're actually talking about... ???

This is the type of Sampler that Electronic/Hip-Hop Producers would be looking for:

I am not even sure how Sitala factors into that discussion.

Sitala is basically a Free Alternative to the likes of Groove Agent [SE], Drum Rack, Kong, Impact XT, etc.

Except with practically none of the sound design capabilities for the samples you load onto the pads.

Threads are asking for a sampler, yet talking about some really super basic drum plugin that is more work than it is worth using - over just laying the samples down in some audio tracks in the arranger.

So, they'd have to develop a sampler, and then donate the code to the Sitala Devs to they can add the synth capabilities to Sitala to make it... usable.

Otherwise, you're better off just using a multi-timbral sampler like Structure (probably have Strike 2 if you have this) , Kontakt, HALion, etc. to develop make your drum kits as Patches and Multis .  They have better capabilities for this stuff than Sitala.

Also, a Sampler isn't exactly a trivial thing to develop.  That's why SONAR sat on DropZone for so long...  It's basically like developing a Synth.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Maestro

[Starship Krupa]

On 12/15/2020 at 3:25 PM, Maestro said:

As long as I don't have to manually bounce 30 clips to avoid the DAW sending the entire file (instead of the part in the clip) to the audio editor, we can add registered "WaveEditor" applicaitons to the clip context menu, that would be good enough to start (for me, at least).

Have you tried dragging and dropping clips from Cakewalk directly onto your sound editor? Works a treat with Sound Forge, at least.

If you read the other posts and topics about this proposed feature, people have started to clarify what we mean by "sampler." It's occurred to me that in the context of integrated "sampling," it's kind of a collection of features under that umbrella name. Even the form they would come in is different: Cubase's sample track vs. Studio One and Mixcraft's pair of sampler instruments.

Here are the features I want:

I want to be able to start with audio, either recorded or imported to Cakewalk, and from there, manipulate it either in the Track View or Loop Construction View, and then either right-click on a clip (or selection) and send that to either a sampler pad or a sampler that can stretch and pitch the sound over several notes. Once I've done that, I want to have tools in the sampler(s) to reverse, pitch, trim, filter, choke group, etc. After I've done this, I want to be able to save what I've done as a patch or scene for later recall, and have all information I need saved to the project's folder. Then I can either play the samples live with a controller or trigger them from a MIDI track. I also want to be able to load the "patch" or "scene" in other projects with the option to copy the audio to the other project's folder.

To me, this covers it. I understand that it might not for everyone and maybe augmenting it with something like Kontakt or Sampletank would be best for them. At some point you have to draw a line at feature creep. The idea isn't to replace full-featured samplers but to allow an integrated workflow (as in, it does it within the program using techniques and menus and keystrokes that the user is familiar with from using the program) and not have to find a 3rd-party solution for the basics.

All these abilities to record and process audio are already in the program, this is just another way to present them. It already has algorithms to record, stretch, pitch, reverse, trim, filter, etc. I doubt that all the other companies who do this write all new code for each of these things. Maybe some do. None of my business. But it may be less of a chore than some think.

[Maestro]

It's not less of a chore than I think.  It's definitely more.  The DAW is missing quite a few things that are in a Sample Editor.  Yes, some things are in-common when we talk about DAWs and Audio Editors.  They both work with Audio, so that is expected.

The more I think about this, and I've been trying out "options" to see if there is anything to recommend beyond what was mentioned in these threads, the more I think that frankly... maybe RIGHT NOW this isn't the best DAW for Electronic Music Production or Beat Making.  Maybe it is just worth using a different DAW to get that done, even if you prefer to Mix in Cakewalk by BandLab.

There are very few good Sampling Options out there, especially for < $50.  Tools like Battery, Groove Agent, Geist, etc. cost enough that you're better off just buing Studio One Artist and using Sample One/Impakt XT there... cheaper.

I think this is simply a reality that some people will have to live with, for the time being.  Similar to how no one is hounding Avid to make Pro Tools an EDM Production paradise.

IMO, Cakewalk is more similar to Pro Tools than it is to something like Ableton Live... or even Studio One... when it comes to accommodating the production of that type of music.

[solarlux]

@Scott Wheeler Hello! Will be also available single-sample instrument  sampler version of Sitala in future?

It would be very great because all single samplers big size and Sitala is perfect size and comfortable.

[solarlux]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:18 PM, chris.r said:

Since we're discussing the ideas for a sample track for Cakewalk, you may be missing a small point here. Agree there are the big samplers, Kontakt and alike, but their biggest strength is that they handle those huge commercial libraries well, allowing for multitimbrality in a single instance. But there's the other scenario where you have just a folder with bunch of samples that you'd like to audition in the context of the project and once you've found the right sample you just want to quickly create a track of it with the use of a sample track. So no need for loading of Kontakt or any other 3rd party software, just the functionality built-in the track for low resources consumption and low risk for crashes and probably most important - no going the way around for inserting extra plugins to create the track. Like here: 

The key for implementing a sample track in Cakewalk in my opinion would be not in what direction, in terms of the two types of samplers that you suggested, would it follow but how advanced would it be. Actually I would split the functionality into three user cases, one would be something you called phrase sampler for triggering and chopping samples, the second is for playing a sample across the keyboard and a third one for creating a drum kit out of a sample set. This is everything easily doable within a single concept of a simple sample track. To create an "instrument" simply drag a sample onto a predefined area and the sample would get assigned to a default key (there would have to be a virtual keyboard visible within the sample track GUI), then just drag both sides of that key to extend the range if you want to play the sample like a piano/synth, or leave the sample within a single key range and drop another sample onto another key to build a drum kit. So there are already two user cases, the last one - for phrase triggering - would come from the selectable type of sample playback, that is whether the sample is played back as one shot or in a loop mode, latch mode or not for triggering samples, etc. Any additionals like an automatic splitting at transients or time division and spreading onto a range of keys would be a bonus.

So I would advocate more for a broad range of usability but at the same time keeping that simplicity regarding built-in functions. For advanced functions we already have Kontakt and other big samplers where you can build very complicated instruments out of multiple velocity layers, round robins, effects, scripts and so much more. In Cakewalk I'd suggest going only as far as dragging a few selected samples at once to let the sample track ask if you'd like the samples to be spread across keys or add them to a single key as velocity layers. Then just simple start/end points, fades (that would serve as an envelope), tune (root note), velocity sensitivity, volume and pan would be necessary, anything more like a filter or EQ as a bonus. Make it possible to change a sample on the fly while playing along with the project and clicking another sample in the browser would be essential. And that's it.

 

Some additional addons to Cakewalk Matrix View can beat this Cubase sampler track easy

[Carl P Clovis]

last time I checked there wasn't a choke group in sitala, has that changed?

[solarlux]

20 minutes ago, Carl P Clovis said:

last time I checked there wasn't a choke group in sitala, has that changed?

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, solarlux said:

Some additional addons to Cakewalk Matrix View can beat this Cubase sampler track easy

The Cubase Sampler Track is a Sampler like Simpler, NN-19, Sample One XT, etc.

It's not anything like the Matrix View, so I'm not sure how you can beat the Cubase Sampler Track with the Matrix View.  That feature isn't attempting to compete with something like that.  It's there because Cubase needed a Sampler and Steinberg added one.  Cubase doesn't do clip launching.  That is what Matrix View is for, pretty much.

----- -----

I did a lot of testing, of different software, and I think AIR Transfuser 2 is what people are looking for.  It is both as a One-Shot Sampler and a Drum Sampler - among other things.  It sort of functions like the Reason Rack before there was a Reason Rack.  Multiple MIDI Inputs and Audio Outputs (8, IIRC), as well.

I can add samples to it and play them across the keyboard - it will auto pitch them.  It has different modes for different samples (One Shot or Loop, Drum/Perc, etc.).  Most basic sample editing and manipulation functions in the sample editor - certainly a lot more than you get from any freebie or something like Komplete Kontrol.

1.  Drag your Drum Sample in, Select Time Stretch Mode

2. Set your MIDI Channel and Low/High Notes (normal for any Sampler) and turn off the Phrase Sequencer.

3.  Set Mode to Drum/Perc and Drum Mode to One Shot.  Make sure it's not set to "Looped."  Set Tempo Sync if you need to.  The pitch controls are fairly self-explanatory.  The editing functions are decent-enough.  You also get FX Inserts, etc.

When you play a MIDI note into the instrument, it will pitch based on the MIDI note sent to the Sampler.  There are 8 Outputs in the Main Section, so everything doesn't have to go into one Stereo Bus.  So, you can load e.g. 8 drum samples per instance and have them all go to their own output, and just play them with MIDI (Drum Editor, Step Sequencer) by using different MIDI Channels...  Basically, a rack of one-shot samplers.

You can also just use one instance of Transfuser per sample, if you want.  It doesn't really use much resources.  No different than a sampler, since you're just using one module per instance...

-----

It can also function as a drum sampler, as it has a drum instrument with (12) pads that you can drag samples onto, with many of the same Sample Editing functions.

It's literally better than Sitala and Komplete Kontrol, combined... by a very wide margin.  The documentation is very decent, as well.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Maestro

[Maestro]

Keep in mind tools like Transfuser 2 were designed specifically to target the things people are looking for, since Pro Tools is also missing much of the tooling needed for EDM and similar genres of music.  That's why AIR created their Synths, Plug-ins and some of their instruments (and Avid owned them for a time, for this reason).

I'm speaking more to that market.

For acoustic drums, there are tons of different plug-ins.  Frankly, I don't see a reason to not use one of them, at this point.  I would absolutely buy something targeting that market, since you really want good samples as well as a great playback engine.  You want Rock Drums (for example) to sound as realistic as possible (in most cases).

Edited January 29, 2021 by Maestro

[Xel Ohh]

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

AIR Transfuser 2

What is this magic you speak of.. ?

This looks promising will look it up..??

[solarlux]

I need simple and small window sized sampler  : )

Edited January 29, 2021 by solarlux

[Scott Wheeler]

On 1/28/2021 at 6:44 PM, solarlux said:

@Scott Wheeler Hello! Will be also available single-sample instrument  sampler version of Sitala in future?

It would be very great because all single samplers big size and Sitala is perfect size and comfortable.

We don't have any plans to make a melodic sampler at the moment.  That doesn't mean that it won't ever happen, but there's almost no chance it'll happen in the next couple years.

[Maestro]

On 1/29/2021 at 3:03 AM, solarlux said:

I need simple and small window sized sampler  : )

Transfuser 2's interface is pretty compact (some people want a bigger UI, to be more ergonomic), and you can collapse areas of the UI that you don't need.  It's actually pretty compact when you need it to be.

If you look at the bar where the branding is ("Transfuser 2" and "AIR" logos), there are buttons to collapse the different panels.

Browser, Editing Panel, and the Groove (Middle) Panel can all be collapsed.

The UI is also resizable.  Ironically, it's one of the few VST2 plug-ins I've used that implements resizing decently.

----

Transfuser 2 adds the equivalent of Studio One's Impact XT, Sample One XT, and [a lot of] Mojito onto Cakewalk by BandLab.  And, of course, thousands of Loops and Samples.

It's also great for Loop Slicing and mapping slices across the keyboard (i.e. ACID Pro's "MIDI Playable Chopper"), among other things.

You can drag and drop between the plug-in and the DAW.

I'd only buy it on sale, anyways, but many of the users here have access to AIR Instrument Expansion Pack 3 Complete due to sales and discounted upgrades (basically making it a $75'ish bundle).

Another oldie-goodie that I like is iZotope BreakTweaker, because the Step Sequencer and Drum Editor in Cakewalk just can't get it done for me.  Plus, it ships with a ton of usable drum samples.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Maestro