Future Request - Ability to send Midi from one midi track to multiple instruments & effects

[scook]

11 minutes ago, xtenkfarpl said:

I think, frankly, that this is a bug.  The 'option' to select the first synth as input to the second is bogus: it doesn't work.

Time for a bug report?   Meanwhile, I guess we are back to copying the MIDI track in as many versions as we want doubled synths, and re-copying any time we make a change.   Sigh....

There is no bug.

I do not recall if any of the synths bundled with CbB are capable of sending MIDI data (I don't believe there are any) but there are quite a few free and paid plug-ins that do.

Distributing MIDI data from instrument track to multiple instrument/MIDI tracks works when using one of them.

The method has been described on this and the old forum forum multiple times

Here is an example

While I prefer using a plug-in, a virtual MIDI cable such as LoopBE1 works too. Some virtual cables add too much latency though.

One does need to manage input echo so it may be easier to disable Always Echo Current MIDI Track and manually set input echo as needed.

[xtenkfarpl]

I still say it is basically a bug.   They should not provide an 'option' to select as input a synth which does not support MIDI thru.   And distributing recorded MIDI data to multiple synths really ought to be a built-in capability.

But with further searching, there do seem to be some MIDI-thru capable VSTs that will do the job.

Looking back through the thread, I noticed:

https://pw.promidi.com.au/softopen/midiMonitor_x64.zip

which still seems to be available, and does the job.  OK, good enough for government work, now I can get on with the actual project!

 

[scook]

File a bug report if you wish.

Just know the current MIDI routing works as designed.

The traditional reply when wanting to use the same recorded data on multiple tracks is linked clips.

Then came routing solutions with virtual MIDI cables and plug-in exploits.

Here is an even more exotic routing example using the Step Sequencer to drive the Matrix view

 

[xtenkfarpl]

Would be more of a 'request for enhancement' than an actual bug, I suppose.  It may 'work as designed' but the design is deficient IMHO.

But what the heck, life's too short.  I've got a workaround and songs to get down, I'm outta here.  Have a good day!

[scook]

1 minute ago, xtenkfarpl said:

Would be more of a 'request for enhancement' than an actual bug, I suppose.  It may 'work as designed' but the design is deficient IMHO.

But what the heck, life's too short.  I've got a workaround and songs to get down, I'm outta here.  Have a good day!

That's right

Looooong standing feature request with several workarounds

[xtenkfarpl]

Actually, I am going to respond one more time to this.  The fact that you can select only one soft synth as target for a MIDI track may be 'works as designed'.  Though as I've said, the design is less than ideal.

But the 'option' to select a synth which does not support MIDI thru as input to a second synth IS a bug.  Because it DOES NOT WORK.  Sorry, but this IS a bug.

[xtenkfarpl]

As a software engineer, I couldn't resist a bit more experimentation.  Turns out the real 'bug' here is not Cakewalk itself.  It is that the included 'SI' plugin instruments seem to claim to support MIDI thru but don't.  Cakewalk takes them at their word and allows them to be selected as inputs to further soft syths. 

Many other VST instruments (eg CollaB3) are honest about the fact that they don't support MIDI thru (and when you insert them, the 'midi out' checkbox is appropriately greyed out).   And, correctly, they do not appear as possible inputs for further synths.

Incidentally I found a lighter-weight 'thru' plugin:  https://www.codefn42.com/midichfilter/index.html

OK, I think I now completely understand the issue, and have a simple workaround.  All done here, time to get on with the music!

[murat k.]

I think it's time to make an implementation of this request.

Yes there are some plugins but thanks.

To me working with the Linked Clips is the best way for now. 

But it is just a workaround.

We need a flexible built-in MIDI routing feature in the Cakewalk.

[xtenkfarpl]

murat said "I think it's time to make an implementation of this request".

I agree.  The workarounds aren't too bad, but dismissing the issue as "works as designed" is rather unsatisfactory.

Some sort of MIDI bus capability would be a considerable improvement.   Still, it's a free program, so I wouldn't expect anything soon?

[murat k.]

1 minute ago, xtenkfarpl said:

murat said "I think it's time to make an implementation of this request".

I agree.  The workarounds aren't too bad, but dismissing the issue as "works as designed" is rather unsatisfactory.

Some sort of MIDI bus capability would be a considerable improvement.   Still, it's a free program, so I wouldn't expect anything soon?

You never know. They're doing awesome stuff. Also this request is not new. So it can happen anytime.

[xtenkfarpl]

We can hope.   Unfortunately it's not an open source project.  As an experienced software engineer I might go in and add it myself.  But meanwhile, we work with what we have, I guess.  It is sometimes a trap to get so involved in the tools that one loses sight of what we are trying to achieve with them....

[jonno58]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:57 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

i use the chordz (free), ripchord (free), or scaler 2 (paid) plugins for the source. then simply assign the inputs on my other tracks to the source (chordz example). seems to be reliable. one important note - enable the echo on each MIDI track.

 

 

OK... So I agree that Sonar does not intrinsically do what we want it to do. Nevertheless, as per Glenn Stanton's post chordz can make it do what is required.

I inserted chordz as a simple instrument track and then inserted SI Piano (also as a simple instrument track) and set the input for the SI Piano to chordz.

I inserted SI Strings as a simple instrument track and set the input for that to chordz.

Finally made sure the Input Echo button was lit for each track.

Result - both SI Piano and SI Strings played the MIDI notes recorded in the chordz track.

So it's been a bit of a long haul, but it seems like it delivers exactly what was needed. 

[Glenn Stanton]

as a note on this: i generally don't ever use this approach. if i need parts duplicated - i just copy the MIDI since more often than not i'm tweaking it for each instrument so a single copy wouldn't work. but i can see the need for it especially if you're creating orchestral sections in detail.

[David Baay]

43 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

as a note on this: i generally don't ever use this approach. if i need parts duplicated - i just copy the MIDI since more often than not i'm tweaking it for each instrument so a single copy wouldn't work.

Same here. It's pretty common that the velocity and/or timing needs to be offset or I only want doubling on the chorus or the instruments need different values for some MIDI controlle. But I do have a couple common setups where I've tweaked two patches to work together with identical MIDI input and it would be convenient to use a single MIDI source.

[jonno58]

25 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

as a note on this: i generally don't ever use this approach. if i need parts duplicated - i just copy the MIDI since more often than not i'm tweaking it for each instrument so a single copy wouldn't work. but i can see the need for it especially if you're creating orchestral sections in detail.

Fwiw my original intention was to also use the Transpose plug-in simply for experimenting with a couple of synths playing in parallel sixths or an octave or two apart. Or whatever. Ie just to see how things sound while I'm messing around. (Kind of a nudged-serendipity, so to speak.) And the ability to record MIDI so as to be able to hear it back later. Which is now possible.

So thanks for that.

 

[Glenn Stanton]

1 hour ago, jonno58 said:

Fwiw my original intention was to also use the Transpose plug-in simply for experimenting with a couple of synths playing in parallel sixths or an octave or two apart.

oh sure, that's what they all say, then suddenly there's arpeggiators, strummers, basslines, melodies... where does the madness end! ? 

[jonno58]

8 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

oh sure, that's what they all say, then suddenly there's arpeggiators, strummers, basslines, melodies... where does the madness end! ? 

Great ideas! Thanks again!

 

[xtenkfarpl]

17 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

oh sure, that's what they all say, then suddenly there's arpeggiators, strummers, basslines, melodies... where does the madness end! ? 

That sort of stuff should obviously be done as plug-ins.  But more flexible routing seems to make sense as a core function.  Wouldn't even require any significant UI changes: just add the option to select a specified MIDI track as input in the input drop-down of a soft synth.  In fact I suspect the amount of coding required for the feature would be quite minimal?

[Glenn Stanton]

i think the UI change would be minimal but the internals of routing the MIDI effectively might be more challenging.

[xtenkfarpl]

19 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

i think the UI change would be minimal but the internals of routing the MIDI effectively might be more challenging.

Yes, that would be the larger part of the work.  But some of the infrastructure is obviously already there: you can select a MIDI-thru capable VST as input. 

So the concept of different MIDI inputs to a VST is in place.  How hard to add one or two more?  If this was an open source project, I'd have a whack at it myself.  Out of professional curiosity: I wonder what language Cakewalk is written in?  It's been around for quite a while, so it might be something quite obscure and archaic, I guess?