question about stereo/mono track button - SOLVED

[greg54]

I was playing around with some things in CbB and was wondering about the stereo/mono button on my mono tracks.    On vocals, when I press it to Mono and hit Play, the vocal is a little louder.   My question is whether it makes a difference on vocal tracks, other than the loudness.    Does it matter if I keep it on Stereo or Mono? 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by greg54

[mark skinner]

Normally I Always record vocals in mono to help keep them in the center of the mix. In fact I record everything in mono and leave the interleave in mono. The signal is louder and allows you to pan instruments easier. There are panning laws you can adjust that effect the loudness the further away from center you pan. One exception I use for changing the interleave to stereo is when using a plugin that Widens the signal of a track. (mainly vocals). Some widening vst's don't seem to work if the track is not changed to stereo.      mark

[greg54]

Thanks, Mark!  That helps.

[tonemangler]

6 hours ago, greg54 said:

My question is whether it makes a difference on vocal tracks, other than the loudness.    Does it matter if I keep it on Stereo or Mono?

 I believe that on any mono signal, like a vocal, the interleave setting, whether stereo or mono, shouldn't effect the the signal level.  When creating a new track the interleave defaults to stereo and that's where I leave it for both mono and stereo signals.  The only time it matters is when you are using VST effects, for stereo effects set interleave to stereo.  Also some mono only plugins don't work properly on stereo tracks.  TBH I don't remember the last time I set the interleave to mono.

 

2 hours ago, mark skinner said:

The signal is louder and allows you to pan instruments easier.

Actually I find that whether the interleave is set to mono or stereo the signal behaves exactly the same way as far as level and panning are concerned.  However I record mono signals with the interleave set to stereo (default) so maybe this behaviour differs when you record onto a track with interleave set to mono?  Not sure.  I honestly don't think it matters except when it comes to effects as you mentioned in your post. 

[John Bradley]

I only ever record mono (vocals and direct guitar). Always leave the interleave set to stereo, because I typically throw at least one stereo effect in the FX bin, be it delay, chorus, reverb, etc.

Only time I ever switch the interleave to mono is when after I've AudioSnap'd a guitar track and want to render it. If you bounce a mono signal (in stereo interleave) to another track -- just the signal, no FX or other processing -- the bounced signal is 3db hotter for what I'm assured are Very Good Reasons. Which in my case, changes the sound coming out of the Amp Sim in the FX bin due to the hotter input. Temporarily switching the interleave to mono, bouncing, and switching back avoids that.

Though it's possible rendering in-place (via bounce to clips) may or may not avoid that. Have to try it, next time I fix a guitar part.

[Blogospherianman]

“Pan law, or pan rule, is a recording and mixing principle that states that any signal of equal amplitude and phase that is played in both channels of a stereo system will increase in loudness up to 6.02 dBSPL, provided there is perfect response in the loudspeaker system and perfect acoustics in the room.“

Basically Cakewalk defaults to a Pan Law of 0db, so when you mono the signal it sounds louder when panned to the Center than on the sides.  Pan law of -6db will lower the Mono signal by 6db when panned to the Center.  Pan law of -3db lowers the Mono signL 3 dbs when panned to the Center.  You’ll notice less change when going from Stereo to mono if your Pan law is -3db or -6db. Same for when you have a mono signal that you are Automating a Pan movement, It will be smoother while Panning Left to right in -3db or -6db Pan law.  The first 2 0db Center settings are smooth with the panning as well because when panned left or right they increase by 3db. Not the case with the last 0db center setting.

To test the theory: 

1. Change the interleave of your test track to Mono
2. Change your Interface To Mono 

3. Change the Pan law to -6db in the Preferences.

4. Play the track and Pan it Left to Right while playing.

If done correctly you won’t hear any change of volume while panning.

Repeat your experiment with -3db Pan law....

Then you’ll notice Pan Center a little Hotter

0db Pan law and you’ll notice Center Pan is louder.

Try your experiment again, but this time Set the Interface  to Stereo.

Try the various Pan laws with the main Track still in mono panning left center and right...This time -6db might seem to be too much reduction. (SSL Consoles split the difference at -4.5 db Pan law. (Hey Cakewalk, how bout a -4.5db Pan law setting to match the SSL Console!)

I personally set Cakewalk to -3db for smooth mono signal panning to stereo and so if I switch to mono on a stereo track it’s not as much of a change.

Have fun experimenting.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Blogospherianman

[mark skinner]

 I guess I got confused and misspoke in my first reply. I Record in mono. Single waveform on the track , and leave the interleave button alone. What confused me was your vocal track got louder after pressing the mono button. It shouldn't do that unless you recorded the track in stereo . 2 waveforms. With the standard panning law , changing the stereo track to mono will increase it 3 db. Panning it 100 % and you'll get another 3 db bump. The point was I never Record vocals in stereo (2 waveforms) Sorry about that...     mark

[bitflipper]

Going back to the original question of whether interleave makes any difference on vocal tracks beyond loudness...

Short answer: no.

You are simply duplicating the vocal and not affecting it in any other way - as long as the track remains "mono". If, however, you insert a stereo effect (e.g. ping-pong delay, reverb or chorus), then the track needs to be treated as such, in which case you'll want to change the interleave to stereo.

Sure, there are subtleties regarding panning, but those really only come into play when you're automating panning. Normally, you drop the lead vocal into the center and nudge the backing vocals outward, then you set their levels and leave them alone. Pan laws aren't a concern.

 

 

 

[greg54]

2 hours ago, mark skinner said:

 I guess I got confused and misspoke in my first reply. I Record in mono. Single waveform on the track , and leave the interleave button alone. What confused me was your vocal track got louder after pressing the mono button. It shouldn't do that unless you recorded the track in stereo . 2 waveforms. With the standard panning law , changing the stereo track to mono will increase it 3 db. Panning it 100 % and you'll get another 3 db bump. The point was I never Record vocals in stereo (2 waveforms) Sorry about that...     mark

I recorded in stereo then changed it to mono.  That's when it got louder.  And I panned my background vocals not 100% L/R but 90%.

12 hours ago, tonemangler said:

The only time it matters is when you are using VST effects, for stereo effects set interleave to stereo.  Also some mono only plugins don't work properly on stereo tracks.

I do use stereo VST plugins on mono tracks sometimes, so I'll leave it on stereo.  I don't need the increase in volume.  I only noticed it when I set it on mono and was curious.

 

53 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

Going back to the original question of whether interleave makes any difference on vocal tracks beyond loudness...

Short answer: no.

That's what I was wondering.   So I'll keep the interleave set to stereo.

Thanks, everyone!

[bitflipper]

Disk drive manufacturers thank you.

[tonemangler]

14 hours ago, Blogospherianman said:

Basically Cakewalk defaults to a Pan Law of 0db, so when you mono the signal it sounds louder when panned to the Center than on the sides.

Actually the 0dB Pan Law that Cakewalk defaults to is center pan 0dB and left and right pan +3dB.  Relatively speaking it is the same as the -3dB Pan Law which has a -3dB center and 0dB left and right.  The only difference between a mix using 0dB and -3dB pan laws is that the -3dB is 3 dB quieter.  Personally I just stick with the default setting.

[Blogospherianman]

On 9/23/2020 at 3:18 PM, tonemangler said:

Actually the 0dB Pan Law that Cakewalk defaults to is center pan 0dB and left and right pan +3dB.  Relatively speaking it is the same as the -3dB Pan Law which has a -3dB center and 0dB left and right.  The only difference between a mix using 0dB and -3dB pan laws is that the -3dB is 3 dB quieter.  Personally I just stick with the default setting.

You’re correct Tonemangler! My bad on the default setting of 0db Center.  The first 2 0db Center Pan Laws DO boost the right and left panned stuff by 3db The last 0db Center setting doesn’t boost the sides by 3db. None of the 0db ones dip the Center.

The 0db center default like you say acts just like the -3db center ones in regards to the difference in volume when panning in mono interleave. (Boosting sides by 3db and not dipping center sounds the same as Not boosting the sides and dipping the center by 3, just softer overall)

The noticeable volume difference Is more prominent In the default 0 center when  taking a stereo track and switching it to mono because the default doesn’t dip the center it just boosts when panned.  So even though it reacts the same as -3 in regards to panning it doesn't fair As well when switching the track to mono Because the sound gets louder when the left and right are combined in to one.

This is one reason I prefer the -3db setting with the center dip.  This makes Pan law a concern for me personally because If I decide my stereo guitar should be monod the volume stays closer without having to adjust. Better A B ing.  That’s my preference though.

Pan law isn’t taken into account on a stereo interleave track, so a vocal recorded in mono with the track set to stereo interleave will sound louder panned center because it’s equal amounts of the same mono signal. Naturally panned all left or all right like this will be softer.  Of course like Bitflipper said if you’re using Stereo effects in your vocal you’ll want it set to stereo interleave. Of course you can always run mono interleave and then use a stereo aux track Or bus.  Then you get the Pan law and stereo effects.

There’s no wrong way if it sounds good and you’re having fun!

 

[Will.]

What @Blogospherianman said. 

That's why most other DAW's on the market do this by default and gives you the option to either add a Mono or Stereo track for recording vocals or instruments - with the interleaves in straight mono-on-mono tracks and stereo in stereo tracks.  

[Will.]

On 9/22/2020 at 10:08 PM, greg54 said:

I was playing around with some things in CbB and was wondering about the stereo/mono button on my mono tracks.    On vocals, when I press it to Mono and hit Play, the vocal is a little louder.   My question is whether it makes a difference on vocal tracks, other than the loudness.    Does it matter if I keep it on Stereo or Mono? 

 

 

1: Go to preferences.

2: Under Audio Tab select "Driver Settings." 

    • Click Stereo Panning Law

    • Set to 0dB center, balance control. 

3: Apply and do a test. 

Record in mono, set the interleave to Mono and do a pan test - this should work for you. 

 

 

[greg54]

Thanks, Will!

[Blogospherianman]

8 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

What @Blogospherianman said. 

That's why most other DAW's on the market do this by default and gives you the option to either add a Mono or Stereo track for recording vocals or instruments - with the interleaves in straight mono-on-mono tracks and stereo in stereo tracks.  

Cakewalk gives us the options of mono clips or stereo clips by setting the inputs as such. Cakewalk also gives us the option of using mono interleave or stereo interleave, which is great. I wouldn’t always want mono clips to be Mono interleave on the tracks (stereo fx inserted. And likewise I don’t always want my stereo guitar or Tambourine to stay stereo, so having a switchable interleave is nice.

I typically use VSL Power Panner on my stereo tracks as it gives you true stereo panning and even Pan law control for those stereo tracks.

It doesn’t hurt to do it one way or the other, but it does help to understand what’s happening with each different way.

[Will.]

On 9/25/2020 at 11:30 PM, Blogospherianman said:

I don’t always want my stereo guitar or Tambourine to stay stereo, so having a switchable interleave is nice.

Doesnt a stereo effect turn a mono channel to stereo? and a mono effect a stereo channel mono? 

Edited January 26 by Will.

[Will.]

42 minutes ago, greg54 said:

Thanks, Will!

Sweet. 

[Jadour Overall]

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