I'm unable to set the input gain level

[Dan Bartosik]

The title says it all.  

Disclaimer; I'm a total newbie to DAW recording, so I'm assuming that the answer to this question is very simple, however for the life of me I cannot figure this out so I decided to ask the forum.

The problem is that the gain control of the recording channel has no effect on the input signal's recording level.  The input signal is seen on the channel's meter, however regardless of whether I set the gain knob to -18.0 or +18.0, the meter level stays the same.

My setup is pretty simple; I'm playing guitar though a Boss GT-1000 multi-effects pedalboard which is connected to the computer through a Focusrite 4i4 audio interface. Since Calkwalk's gain control is non-functional, I've been using the level control on the 4i4 in order to adjust the recording levels in Cakewalk.  Its a workaround that gets the job done, however I want to correct Calkwalk's gain control so that it does what it should.  The GT-1000 can be used as an audio interface when connected through USB, which I've tried and I have the same problem; Cakewalk's gain control has no impact on recording signal strength.

It seems as though the input signal is bypassing the gain control knob, so I suspect that the problem has to do with the signal path?.  Any suggestions on how to fix this would be greatly appreciated. 

Screen shots showing the meter strength at minum and maximum gain settings:

Here are screenshots showing my current audio settings:

On a sidenote, I'm amazed at easily it was for me to learn to do basic recording within Cakewalk.  My first recording project was a cover of Peter's Green's "The Supernatural". I started out with the bass guitar track playing to the metronome, then I layered in the other guitar tracks.  All guitar tracks on this recording were done silently while monitoring through headphones, with the exception of the four long sustaining notes which I needed to have the speakers on in order to get feedback.  The drums are a Roland TD-4 set. The drums themselves actually sound quite good, but the electronic cymbals are pretty lame, so I set up a microphone and dubbed in real cymbals.  I haven't yet learned how to add effects within Cakewalk, so all effects that you hear on this recording are from my GT-1000 guitar patches.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Dan Bartosik

[scook]

The DAW has no control over the levels coming from external sources.

The signal flow diagram shows the signal from these devices arrives just after the input gain.

 

[scook]

There is one issue in the images provided in the OP.

All the images show Focusrite EXCEPT the last one.

The Record Latency Adjustment is set to Creative ASIO.

 

[Dan Bartosik]

2 hours ago, scook said:

There is one issue in the images provided in the OP.

All the images show Focusrite EXCEPT the last one.

The Record Latency Adjustment is set to Creative ASIO.

 

Correct.  For some reason, when I change this setting to the Focusrite, it reverts back to the Creative ASIO setting.  I don't believe that this setting would have anything to do with the GAIN control not working, but maybe?

[scook]

Nothing in the DAW can affect the level coming from the audio interface.

[Dan Bartosik]

2 hours ago, scook said:

The DAW has no control over the levels coming from external sources.

 

Maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding the purpose of the GAIN control.  Isn't  the track's GAIN knob for adjusting the strength of the incoming signal so that it is below the clipping level when it is being recorded?

For instance, let's say that I connect a microphone to the XLR on the Focusrite and I then adjust the gain knob (of the Focusrite) so that the the mic is safely below the clipping level.    

Now when I go into Cakewalk to record from that mic source.  Shouldn't I also be able to fine tune the recording level using the track's GAIN knob?  Currently the GAIN knob doesn't seem to have an effect on anything.  I can turn it all the way up or all the way down, and the recording level meter  does not change whatsoever.  Are you saying that the recording level must always be adjusted on the external audio interface?  That just doesn't sound right.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Dan Bartosik

[msmcleod]

32 minutes ago, Dan Bartosik said:

Maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding the purpose of the GAIN control.  Isn't  the track's GAIN knob for adjusting the strength of the incoming signal so that it is below the clipping level when it is being recorded?

For instance, let's say that I connect a microphone to the XLR on the Focusrite and I then adjust the gain knob (of the Focusrite) so that the the mic is safely below the clipping level.    

Now when I go into Cakewalk to record from that mic source.  Shouldn't I also be able to fine tune the recording level using the track's GAIN knob?  Currently the GAIN knob doesn't seem to have an effect on anything.  I can turn it all the way up or all the way down, and the recording level meter  does not change whatsoever.  Are you saying that the recording level must always be adjusted on the external audio interface?  That just doesn't sound right.

No, the Gain control is used to control the signal from the clip going to the fx bin /pro-channel (depending on pre/post pro-channel setting).

The gain of the recorded signal is controlled by your audio interface.

So when recording, the signal goes as follows:

Audio Hardware Gain -> ASIO Input -> recorded clip -> Gain Control ->  fx / pro-channel -> Volume

The main use of the track gain control is to gain-stage plugin input signal.

[bitflipper]

What makes it confusing for newbies is that DAWs are made to look like their hardware precedents. Animated pixels that look like faders and buttons, but don't actually do anything themselves. They're just a place to aim at with your mouse.

While that does help make controls' functions more obvious, at least if you've used hardware in the past, no piece of software will ever actually do everything a hardware console does.

One of those things is inserting a trim pot at the front end, ahead of all active electronics, that can reduce the signal that the mixer sees. There simply is no such thing in your computer, despite what the pictures show. Cakewalk actually gets the signal way down the line and must work with what it's given. It has no direct connection to the outside world. 

Bottom line is that you have to set input levels outside the computer, in the real world. 

[Dan Bartosik]

I guess that I've been doing this correctly all along (setting the signal level from the external device).    DAW is all new brand new to me, so I'm learning.  Thank you to all who replied. 

 

 

 

[Kurre]

Oh, i've also been thinking wrong about gain.

I get it now - it's only an audio fx in knob form. ?

Shouldn't it be with the other audio fx? Why has it got its own knob?

[rsinger]

3 hours ago, Kurre said:

Oh, i've also been thinking wrong about gain.

I get it now - it's only an audio fx in knob form. ?

Shouldn't it be with the other audio fx? Why has it got its own knob?

Think about how analog recording worked with tape. You recorded through a console to tape. After your material was recorded you mixed down through the console. If you look at the signal flow diagram that SCook provided it supports that method. The gain control functions after program material has been recorded - that is on clips. The Input signal path is used for recording and the Clip signal path is used for playback - mixing, overdubbing, and mastering. HTH.

[Kurre]

11 hours ago, rsinger said:

Think about how analog recording worked with tape. You recorded through a console to tape. After your material was recorded you mixed down through the console. If you look at the signal flow diagram that SCook provided it supports that method. The gain control functions after program material has been recorded - that is on clips. The Input signal path is used for recording and the Clip signal path is used for playback - mixing, overdubbing, and mastering. HTH.

You're writing about an analog console. It isn't needed because you can record directly to tape and play directly from tape. Thus the console could be considered an fx.

[lapasoa]

For recording the input level is set in the audio interface.

You can use the track's volume level in Cakewalk jus for listenining what you recorded.

[John Bradley]

19 hours ago, Kurre said:

Shouldn't it be with the other audio fx? Why has it got its own knob?

No, because the FX bin can occur either before or after the ProChannel (and vice-versa) in the signal flow.

The gain knob is higher up on the strip because it always first in the chain, adjusting the level of the input signal (either a soft synth or a recorded audio clip) before the signal hits the PC, the FX, or anything else in the chain. Important if the PC/FX have a 'sweet spot' that you need to hit, level-wise. 

[Kurre]

Let me say this instead:

Please, invent something diferent for gain control.

As a free daw there will be hundreds of thousands falling in to this trap, believing it would increase the volume of the weak audio input signal.

Of course they will get it by trial and error. But it is an unnecessary irritation.

Maybe hide the gain knob for a track when you select an audio input? And arm it?

Edited August 24, 2020 by Kurre
Addition.

[gustabo]

4 minutes ago, Kurre said:

Let me say this instead:

Please, invent something diferent for gain control.

As a free daw there will be hundreds of thousands falling in to this trap, believing it would increase the volume of the weak audio input signal.

Of course they will get it by trial and error. But it is an unnecessary irritation.

It has been invented, it's called hardware. Hardware determines the input gain, it's part of the A/D conversion.

[Jonathan Sasor]

18 minutes ago, Kurre said:

Let me say this instead:

Please, invent something diferent for gain control.

As a free daw there will be hundreds of thousands falling in to this trap, believing it would increase the volume of the weak audio input signal.

Of course they will get it by trial and error. But it is an unnecessary irritation.

Maybe hide the gain knob for a track when you select an audio input? And arm it?

The gain knob on the track strip is for the playback gain in Cakewalk. For instance if you recorded something with a low signal from your interface and then want to change how hot that signal goes into your plugins in the rack, the gain knob is before the FX bin in the signal flow. 

As mentioned, this is distinct from the record level though. Cakewalk (or any host) receives a signal from the selected audio input driver. That level is then set from the hardware device, be it from a software mixer panel or a physical knob on the device.

[Kurre]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

The gain knob on the track strip is for the playback gain in Cakewalk. For instance if you recorded something with a low signal from your interface and then want to change how hot that signal goes into your plugins in the rack, the gain knob is before the FX bin in the signal flow. 

As mentioned, this is distinct from the record level though. Cakewalk (or any host) receives a signal from the selected audio input driver. That level is then set from the hardware device, be it from a software mixer panel or a physical knob on the device.

Ok. Enough. I got that from Scook's post yesterday.

I am pointing out that not everybody testing your daw is professionals and get that. They would get it much faster if there was no gain knob in the track when they setup to record audio. They see the gain knob for master and check another track, which probably is an instrument track, and they see a gain knob there. That would be enough for most people to draw a logical conclusion about the gain knobs.

PS. Ask someone that understands people. Searching for an answer in a manual is something most people avoid until they are forced to.

Ok. That's enough from me on this topic. You can discuss among yourself.

[John Vere]

In the past if you wanted to become a recording engineer you read a few well written books or you went to a college. You would then understand the terminology and "how things work" . It a bit annoying to have people think a software company is supposed to spoon feed engineering to the punters. Read the manual and study your craft. Book or videos it's you choice, but I highly recommend this if you want to get were your going without frustration. 

https://bgaudioclub.org/uploads/docs/Yamaha_Sound_Reinforcement_Handbook_2nd_Edition_Gary_Davis_Ralph_Jones.pdf

 

[Rico Belled]

 

On 8/24/2020 at 8:15 AM, Kurre said:

Ok. Enough. I got that from Scook's post yesterday.

I am pointing out that not everybody testing your daw is professionals and get that. They would get it much faster if there was no gain knob in the track when they setup to record audio. They see the gain knob for master and check another track, which probably is an instrument track, and they see a gain knob there. That would be enough for most people to draw a logical conclusion about the gain knobs.

PS. Ask someone that understands people. Searching for an answer in a manual is something most people avoid until they are forced to.

Ok. That's enough from me on this topic. You can discuss among yourself.

DUDE!

You should get a Mac if that's your attitude, because dumbing down a DAW because SOME people might not get it is ridiculous. It's a serious piece of software and that's why I love it. If it's going to be built for people who will only RTM when they're "forced" it's gonna suffer....

 

R