MIDI plugin classified as Instrument

[Michal Ochedowski]

Hi. 

When I first installed Cakewalk, I noticed that all my third party MIDI effects were placed in the Instruments category. Today I wanted to create FX chain with three MIDI effects and couldn't do that. "Save FX Rack as FX Chain Preset" was greyed out. None of these effects generate sound. In other DAWs: Ableton Live, Reaper, Waveform they always appear as MIDI effects, which is not the case in Cakewalk. 

To be more precise, I mean a free set of effects from developer CodeFN42 and one effect from eaReckon called MIDI Polysher. 

Is there a way to change classification of these effects, so they appear in proper category? I've already looked in the Plug-in Manger, but couldn't find any solution. 

 

[scook]

In Cakewalk there is no concept of a VST MIDI effect. Still effects can send and receive MIDI data.

The scanner determines the plug-in type and while this may be manually overridden it is not necessary. The VST2/3 drop down above the plug-in UI has switches to enable MIDI input and output.

By default, synths always have MIDI input enabled. For those capable of sending MIDI data, MIDI output is enabled by default otherwise it is disabled. For effects, these options are turned off by default and depending on the plug-in's features may be disabled.

There is no way to pass MIDI data from one VST effect to directly another so, even if one puts VST MIDI effects in an FX chain, the MIDI data would not flow from one plug-in to another. With very few exceptions, to send MIDI data to a plug-in requires an instrument or MIDI track.

Plug-ins with "Enable MIDI input" enabled appear in MIDI track output drop downs.

Plug-ins with "Enable MIDI output" enabled appear in instrument and MIDI track input drop downs.

Even if a synth does not create audio an audio track is required. When using VST plug-ins such as MIDI sequencers, they must be added using an instrument track or audio+MIDI track pair.

 

 

[Michal Ochedowski]

10 minutes ago, scook said:

There is no way to pass MIDI data from one VST effect to directly another so, even if one puts VST MIDI effects in an FX chain, the MIDI data would not flow from one plug-in to another. With very few exceptions, to send MIDI data to a plug-in requires an instrument or MIDI track. 

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer. I especially appreciate the sentence quoted above. I'm glad I asked on this forum. Wasted enough time already looking for a solution. Now I know that what I wanted to achieve was not possible. 

[LarsF]

..to expand a bit - you can always chain a couple of instrument tracks together, taking midi out from one as input to the next.

Then to repeat this, just save this config as a track template and this is done in a flash for you.

For the smoothest operation I use Bluecat Audio Patchwork to chain a whole bunch of midi effects and instruments and whatnot on a single instance on an instrument track. I mostly use Insert Piz Here midi plugins bundle.

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_PatchWork/

Good investment for sure.

 

But for DX type of midi effects, MFX, you can see if some are here that are useful.

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/

They can be inserted on midi tracks MFX bays in series if you want.

Edited June 19, 2020 by LarsF

[Michal Ochedowski]

3 hours ago, LarsF said:

..to expand a bit - you can always chain a couple of instrument tracks together, taking midi out from one as input to the next.

Then to repeat this, just save this config as a track template and this is done in a flash for you.

Thank you for the suggestion. I actually thought about chaining tracks together, but very quickly realized how counterproductive it would be. I'm also discouraged based on the amount of time I already spent on this issue. Sure it would be a workaround, but I'm all about simplicity, so I'll pass. 

I can't believe that such an advanced DAW doesn't allow a function, which to this day I took for granted. Chaining a few MIDI effects together and being sure that data will be transferred from one to another. Really disappointing.  

[LarsF]

1 hour ago, Michal Ochedowski said:

Thank you for the suggestion. I actually thought about chaining tracks together, but very quickly realized how counterproductive it would be. I'm also discouraged based on the amount of time I already spent on this issue. Sure it would be a workaround, but I'm all about simplicity, so I'll pass. 

I can't believe that such an advanced DAW doesn't allow a function, which to this day I took for granted. Chaining a few MIDI effects together and being sure that data will be transferred from one to another. Really disappointing.  

The best I saw in this was Mixcraft - very clever approach to just stack instruments and effects as you please and midi just flows down to the next.

Load an arpeggiator then an instrument - and you could save it as an effect chain we are used to do with effects in a bay.

And each instrument in the chain got their own outs as well. If you did two instances of Dimension Pro that just have one stereo out, you get two stereo out from that chain or folder.

 

Reaper is good in the sense there are no track types - as I recall. You handle audio and midi on the same track, and route however you like.

 

I requested for Sonar many years ago, feature request, to have VST midi effects go in MFX bays as well. You have for audio tracks to do both DX technology and VST technology - why not for midi bays on midi tracks to handle both?

MFX is DX technology, so extend to handle VST as well - and you could do many things not as easy today. I could insert the Piz midi plugins in MFX bays too.

 

Regardless of daw though, you have a choice to look for solutions or problems. Looking for problems you will swap daw all the time. If there are showstoppers it's nothing you can do but swap.

 

But Patchwork makes me free to do this regardsless of daw I use. And why I don't use anything stock plugins either - all 3rd party. The plugins are the tools you need to learn - and you move them to any daw of choice without relearning your tools.

[azslow3]

4 hours ago, Michal Ochedowski said:

I can't believe that such an advanced DAW doesn't allow a function, which to this day I took for granted. Chaining a few MIDI effects together and being sure that data will be transferred from one to another. Really disappointing.  

Can you believe such common format as VST no longer allows you to process all MIDI "as is"? You still can process some MIDI messages, but far from all (and everything except Notes is transferred rather tricky way). That is VST3... Note that no new developers are allowed to created VST2 (not possible to sign the license).

Cakewalk still support DX MFX only, but curiously that can be an advantage in not so distinct future. At least everyone can write DXes without rather "fancy" VST3 license. F.e. everyone who has signed it agree to switch to ANY next format, so VST3.10, VST4, VST5 within fixed time period... Steinberg has learned that declaring VST2 "obsolete" many years ago  does not prevent this format is still in use. So they have decided to solve the problem in advance...

[Michal Ochedowski]

19 hours ago, LarsF said:

Reaper is good in the sense there are no track types - as I recall. You handle audio and midi on the same track, and route however you like.

That's right. Reaper really shines in this matter. It has the least problematic approach among DAWs that I know or tried. 

 

19 hours ago, LarsF said:

Regardless of daw though, you have a choice to look for solutions or problems. Looking for problems you will swap daw all the time. If there are showstoppers it's nothing you can do but swap.

But Patchwork makes me free to do this regardsless of daw I use. And why I don't use anything stock plugins either - all 3rd party. The plugins are the tools you need to learn - and you move them to any daw of choice without relearning your tools.

You make a very good point. I have the same attitude towards stock plugins. 

I noticed Blue Cat Audio Patchwork in a lot of videos over the years. I'm aware of what it can do, but somehow always wanted to avoid it. Just like I'm staying away from bridging 32 bit VSTs in Reaper. 

15 hours ago, azslow3 said:

Can you believe such common format as VST no longer allows you to process all MIDI "as is"? You still can process some MIDI messages, but far from all (and everything except Notes is transferred rather tricky way). That is VST3... Note that no new developers are allowed to created VST2 (not possible to sign the license).

Cakewalk still support DX MFX only, but curiously that can be an advantage in not so distinct future. At least everyone can write DXes without rather "fancy" VST3 license. F.e. everyone who has signed it agree to switch to ANY next format, so VST3.10, VST4, VST5 within fixed time period... Steinberg has learned that declaring VST2 "obsolete" many years ago  does not prevent this format is still in use. So they have decided to solve the problem in advance...

You provided some valuable info. Thanks for sharing.