Need help with connecting two devices in Cakewalk

[chris.r]

I have USB interface from ART (dual tube pre) that uses class compliant driver but I'm using the audio driver from Ploytec to convert it into high quality ASIO driver. Works excellent.

I've bought an USB mic Shure MV5 it's class compliant too and it's 24bit (and 16bit, the ART is 16bit only), it also has it's own headphone output. I'm trying to connect both so I can either record simultaneously from two devices or playback audio through both at the same time, but it's not working.

Since ASIO mode allows only for single device I had to switch to WDM because only in WDM mode I could see both devices in input drivers, in WASABI mode there was nothing in the inputs at all.

Now, if I try to play some audio through both devices, I can get fine output only from one of them, the one that I put as the timing master, the other one is giving me corrupted audio. Is there a way to make them both work simultaneously or am I asking for too much?

Edited May 26, 2020 by chris.r

[John Vere]

You know all of those devices you listed are very sub standard as far as drivers go  which will only cause you grief with Cakewalk. A proper ASIO audio interface is the heart of  a good DAW system. They are not that expensive and then you can get on with creating music.  

Any other mode than ASIO will not sync properly when you do overdubbing. I have tested all the modes with a few different devices and only ASIO will sync properly because it can report its latency to Cakewalk. If you insist on using a different mode then you will need to manually adjust your timing offset. 

You can test your overdubbing by performing a loop back test. 

 

Take a midi kick drum track and bounce it to audio. 

Plug a short patch cable from your audio output back to your audio input. 

Insert a new audio track and set it to record that input. 

Play and record the new track. 

Now zoom in and see if it lines up with the original track. 

[chris.r]

Hi John, thanks for stopping by. I see what you say, there's nothing to disagree. To make a good recording I need a good interface with good preamps and drivers etc. Well I have one on my list but I need time before I can invest in it, it's not gonna happen now. But it's not like I'm not doing anything in that regard. As you may not remember, we had already a 'discussion' in the past regarding upgrading my old 32-bit laptop and desktop for a new 64-bit ones, about a year or two ago, when I asked for some advice and mentioned I'm still in 32-bit. Now I finally made it into 64-bit so yes, there is some progress it just takes time. I'll take a chance on a good audio interface when the right time come but for now I need some advice with what I have.

The thing is, the ART tube preamp I have is already a really nice piece of hardware and sounds very good, definitely better than what my basic needs are right now. Even if I would change it to one from say Focusrite or Steinberg, I don't see much how it could upgrade the audio quality really, it just sounds very good as is. And as I said above, I'm using Ploytec ASIO driver which turns it into an excellent ASIO interface. Driver-wise it's brilliant, very stable, really low latency, cpu efficient, can you say the same about your Focusrite or whatever interface you got there? Really hard to say what to ask for as an upgrade, maybe investing in one of the RME boxes but that's alot money and yes, in the future I may do it but don't have the need nor money for the time being. Anyway, on it's own the ART+ploytec combo works excellent and I'm very happy with it. It just gives me the job done good and no problems whatsoever.

Also the USB mic Shure MV5 is a little brilliant idea in a small piece of gear. It sounds great as is really joy to work with. So yes, on it's own it's great and works flawlessly. The only problem I have is if it's possible to make those two devices, the ART interface and the Shure usb-mic, work together in Cakewalk simultaneously. If anyone have any experience in working with similar combo - an ASIO interface+USB mic (with built-in headphone output) - or have some idea about any settings I could use to make them work both at once. After decades working with MIDI I'm slowly stepping into audio territory so I may be missing a lot of knowledge on how to setup Cakewalk for some specific audio job. Hopefully someone step in and shine some light.

And hey, I just finished recording a couple songs with my 12 years old son in my bedroom, literally, using Sony NC31E plugs and tracking onto my phone Sony Xperia. Yes, the noise cancelling little plugs that came with my phone, no dedicated mic, no audio interface, no pc. The studio I got the order for those songs was very happy with the results. The songs themselves are going to be featured in some youtube kids channel. Man, was it great experience. The Shure MV5 will be an improvement, mainly in that it sounds less sibilant so the audio engineer will have less work with our audio takes. ?

Edited May 28, 2020 by chris.r

[msmcleod]

I think the only thing you can do is use your ART as the timing/playback master, and live with the fact that your Shure might be a few milliseconds out. It should be easy enough to nudge the recorded clip once recorded if its timing is slightly out.

In reality though, I don't think you'll notice any audible difference in timing. 

Personally I always advise people against getting USB mics, unless they're ONLY doing podcasts. Most decent mics (and your Shure, being a Shure, probably is a decent mic) have non-USB equivalents, and I'll steer people towards them instead.

There's two reasons for this:

1. The ASIO "one driver at a time issue" you've encountered; and

2. With a standard XLR mic, you've got a choice of preamps and interfaces. When you upgrade your preamp/interface, you can still use your mic. With a USB mic, it's also the preamp and the interface, and you've not choice at all.

[Edit] - You could use ASIO4ALL or ASIOLink as an alternative way of combining these interfaces. 

ASIO4ALL will use the WDM mode of both interfaces, and present it to Cakewalk as ASIO.  

ASIOLink can use ASIO mode for the ART, and WDM for the Shure - presenting them both to Cakewalk as ASIO. 

The configuration of both can be a bit of a hassle though - ASIOLink especially so.

[chris.r]

@msmcleod Thanks Mark, the usb mic is actually belonging to my friend, I ordered it for him so he could record his vocal and guitar on the phone at home. Works a breeze for that. But I'm allowed to use it for a while.  

56 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

I think the only thing you can do is use your ART as the timing/playback master, and live with the fact that your Shure might be a few milliseconds out. It should be easy enough to nudge the recorded clip once recorded if its timing is slightly out.

I could live with that but the problem is that if I set ART as the timing master I'm getting corrupted audio from Shure, and if I set Shure as the master I'm getting corrupted audio from ART. The corrupted audio sounds like it's chopped in slices and out of sync with many dropouts. If I could iron that out I'd be at home but have no idea where to look further in settings.

Also, as them being WDM drivers now, do Windows sound settings have any influence on how they work in Cakewalk? Or are the settings solely on Cakewalk's side?

Another question, how do I recognize if Shure is working in 16-bit or 24-bit mode, in Cakewalk? I can only see settings for record bit depth. Is there a way to set that in Cakewalk the way I like?

The last thing I'd like to do is to install anything in addition like Asio4All or AsioLink. The system is clean now and I'd wish to keep it that way and avoid installing any unnecessary stuff that might puzzle it.

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

being a Shure, probably is a decent mic

indeed, sounds very close to SM58 here but less sibilant and a bit more detailed because it's condensed, but it's definitely got that Shure signature sound  

[John Vere]

Did you try WASAPI Shared? That is supposed to work as well as ASIO4all. I myself have used WDM mode without issue a few years ago to record our band at live performances. I used my Tascam us1641 interface along side our Yamaha mixer that has stereo USB output. This gave me 16 audio tracks as well as I recorded the keyboard to a midi track. 

That said both devices have proper ASIO drivers that I installed. I think the issue is always going to be with anything that uses generic ASIO drivers like the Art does.

So try WASAPI and then if it doesn't work try ASIO4all. I used ASIO4all on my laptop for over a year until WASAPI came out in Cakewalk. It work just fine and it never interfered with my proper ASIO drivers. It used to have issues but they have always kept developing so it's improved over time. It's just that you don't want to be doing any overdubs in those driver modes. They will be out of sync. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by John Vere

[chris.r]

6 hours ago, John Vere said:

Did you try WASAPI Shared

Yes I tried both, shared and exclusive modes but there is just 'none' in the Input Drivers in Cakewalk preferences. If I could know what cause that, because both appear in the inputs in WDM/KS mode and actually work but giving me corrupted audio playback from whichever I set as the non-record/playback timing master, the other then plays fine. There might be some conflict at the driver level.

6 hours ago, John Vere said:

They will be out of sync.

That's no problem, our takes will be handled manually later anyway.

Edited May 28, 2020 by chris.r

[chris.r]

Ok so I went through all windows sound settings that I have found relevant (not being sure if the settings made in windows have any influences on how the gear is working in Cakewalk at all but apparently it has, at least in WASAPI mode) and checked/unchecked every possible setting that could make a sense to me. Rebooted Windows and Cakewalk and suddenly both devices appeared in the input drivers (although I could check both only in exclusive mode, in shared mode checking one of them automatically disabled the other-which is strange to me as I would expect it to work the other way). Now I'm not sure which exactly setting made it happen, but I'm thinking of two: one is that I've found that the Shure has separate settings for driver bit depth for playback and recording in (windows) shared mode and they was set differently ie. 16-bit for playback and 24-bit for recording, and secondly that I had input devices disabled in windows sound settings, so I enabled them.

And now I have both devices recording and playing back simultaneously but I had to raise the latency way above 10ms. Anything below 500 samples is prone to cause dropouts.

The other caveat is that to be able to record from Shure in WASAPI mode I had to go to microphone privacy settings in windows and set it to Allow to use microphone on this computer, which was not needed at all in WDM mode. And I don't like it but, well...

Still don't know where/how do I check/set if my Shure MV5 is recording with 16 or 24-bit depth. Changes in windows settings seem to not make any difference. And in Cakewalk I can't find anything beside record bit depth in preferences>file>audio data but it doesn't make me sure that the Shure mic is actually working in 24-bit record mode. There is Audio driver bit depth setting in Driver Settings but I can set it only to 16-bit. Anyone could tell me what is the Audio driver bit depth setting exactly? One possibility is that it won't record in 24-bit at all because the ART driver is 16-bit only, idk.

Edited May 29, 2020 by chris.r