MDI 16 Channels -- a Cakewalk limitation or synth/vst?

[Michael McBroom]

I suppose I could set up a test file to find the answer to this, but I'm wondering if things might be more complicated, which is why I'm putting this question to the forumind.

I've always known that MIDI is limited to 16 channels, but I'm wondering now, is this a limitation that the Cakewalk environment imposes, or does it depend on the synths and/or VSTs. For example, let's say I've got a number of MIDI instruments that I have assigned to TTS-1 -- say a dozen. But I need to load, I dunno, another five more. So that will put me at 17. But what if, for these next five instruments I choose to load VSTs and a MIDI keyboard or two? Are all these separate instruments included in the 16 channel total, or does each of these separate devices have at least one channel not included in the Cakewalk total (like TTS-1) that it can use?

I found this article on the subject. It seems that, if one has the hardware to support it, one can have a large number of MIDI channels. But I guess my question remains -- will Cakewalk support this larger number of channels?

http://homerecordinghub.com/midi-interface.html

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Michael McBroom

[scook]

A DAW MIDI track is similar to a hardware MIDI cable. A single MIDI cable may have up to 16 channels of MIDI data.

In the link they talk about an interface that supports 8 instruments for a total of 128 channels. IOW 8 instruments each with 16 channels of MIDI data.

 

 

 

[abacab]

The limitation is a MIDI standard, not a Cakewalk environment specification. But as scook stated, the limitation is per MIDI cable (port/instrument), not per DAW.

You can add as many MIDI ports/instruments as your hardware or DAW can handle, each with 16 MIDI channels.

[msmcleod]

The VST3 standard allows for multiple MIDI event buses, each with 16 MIDI channels. 

Very few support it though, with the Vienna Symphonic Library (VSL) being a notable exception. 

I suspect Kontakt might support it once they move to VST3.

[Michael McBroom]

I'm aware of the 5-pin MIDI cable being the 16 channel restriction. It sounds as if you're saying what I'd hoped to hear -- that Cakewalk has no limit in MIDI channels it can handle, but rather that the limit is imposed by the devices and/or software synths being used.

[James Argo]

Yes, actually the limit is imposed by the MIDI standard which almost all synth followed. For years, many manufacturer tried to build more than 16 channel capable synth (For example Roland SC88 sound module which is capable of playing 32 parts on 32 channel), but they require two MIDI in port to access the channel 17-32.

 

[abacab]

2 hours ago, Michael McBroom said:

I'm aware of the 5-pin MIDI cable being the 16 channel restriction. It sounds as if you're saying what I'd hoped to hear -- that Cakewalk has no limit in MIDI channels it can handle, but rather that the limit is imposed by the devices and/or software synths being used.

In Cakewalk, the MIDI channels available to a single device is 16. I believe that it was designed to comply with the MIDI standard, over 30 years ago. So there is an actual limit on the number of channels per MIDI port (instrument or device).

You can insert multiple devices (ports), each with 16 channels, to get the aggregate number of channels that you require.

In the case of TTS-1, you could add a 2nd instance of TTS-1, and use channels  1-16 in the 2nd for additional channels, although they wouldn't be numbered in Cakewalk as ch. 17-32. Each virtual instrument would occupy one 16 channel MIDI port.

So for example, two instances of a TTS-1 instrument would require two instrument tracks and end up with [TTS-1 #1 / ch 1-16], [TTS-1 #2 / ch 1-16].

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by abacab

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, Michael McBroom said:

I'm aware of the 5-pin MIDI cable being the 16 channel restriction.

It's not the physical cable that imposes the restriction; it's the MIDI communications protocol, itself, and, indirectly, the data rate of the serial PC ports over which it had to operate.  Only 4 bits were allocated to specify a channel. 4 bits let you count from 0 to 15 in binary; hence 16 channels. Since binary 'word' lengths are restricted ot 4-bit 'nibbles' or 8-bit bytes, the choice for developers would have been between 16 channels and 256 channels. The approximately-1-MIDI-message-per-millisecond data rate of a serial port would make it impossible to get acceptably good timing when pushing anywhere near 256 channels of data through a single port. Even 16 channels can be too much if there's a lot of controller data being pushed along with basic note on/offs.

[abacab]

Another example would be USB MIDI. It is much faster as far as throughput than the old serial MIDI cables.

Some carry multiple MIDI connections over USB. But each still has 16 channels per port.

In the case of controller keyboards, in addition to the main MIDI-IN,  many also offer an additional 5-pin MIDI-IN port (for external MIDI hardware) on the rear panel that can be passed thru the USB cable connection and routed within the DAW host. Some controllers also use a 2nd MIDI port for the MIDI control surface input, in addition to a port for the regular keyboard input. But each of those MIDI over USB ports are discretely defined by the driver in the host as individual 16 channel MIDI ports.

Edited May 9, 2020 by abacab

[Michael McBroom]

Guys, thanks for clearing up the mental confusion I was having. Abacab, I had thought of trying to load two instances of TTS-1 to test it out, but I'm glad to read you've confirmed it works. I have a couple of pieces I've composed where I should go back and adjust my TTS-1 settings to avoid any MIDI confusion.

Abacab, the way I'm getting the GR-33 into Cakewalk right now is through a USB audio interface with 5-pin MIDI ports. I also have a couple of Midiman MidiSport 2x2s and a Roland UM-1 or something or another that's 5-pin to USB. Currently, the only device I have hooked up that require a MIDI-to-USB interface is the GR-33, but I also have an older Yamaha keyboard that has several onboard patches I'm quite fond of, and a Roland JV-1010 that I bought back in the age of hardware synths, which also has some decent settings. More importantly,. I've recorded tunes using Pro Audio 9 that, in order for them to work properly in Cakewalk, I have to have all these old synths hooked up so their instruments are interpreted properly.

Speaking of Pro Audio 9, abacab, I like your avatar. Most expensive single piece of software I've ever bought.

 

[abacab]

36 minutes ago, Michael McBroom said:

Guys, thanks for clearing up the mental confusion I was having. Abacab, I had thought of trying to load two instances of TTS-1 to test it out, but I'm glad to read you've confirmed it works. I have a couple of pieces I've composed where I should go back and adjust my TTS-1 settings to avoid any MIDI confusion.

Abacab, the way I'm getting the GR-33 into Cakewalk right now is through a USB audio interface with 5-pin MIDI ports. I also have a couple of Midiman MidiSport 2x2s and a Roland UM-1 or something or another that's 5-pin to USB. Currently, the only device I have hooked up that require a MIDI-to-USB interface is the GR-33, but I also have an older Yamaha keyboard that has several onboard patches I'm quite fond of, and a Roland JV-1010 that I bought back in the age of hardware synths, which also has some decent settings. More importantly,. I've recorded tunes using Pro Audio 9 that, in order for them to work properly in Cakewalk, I have to have all these old synths hooked up so their instruments are interpreted properly.

Speaking of Pro Audio 9, abacab, I like your avatar. Most expensive single piece of software I've ever bought.

 

With all those various MIDI connections, whether they are 5-pin, or USB, they should all appear as available MIDI ports in the Cakewalk MIDI input/output preferences. The functions as far as MIDI should remain the same, regardless of the media used.

Yep, I used to rock the Midiman Midisport with my Roland JV's and various other MIDI synth keyboards when I was using all hardware.

But after a move a few years ago, started switching to all virtual, in the box instruments. Still have my hardware, but not currently hooked up due to space limitations. I sort of miss it, but never really liked working with MIDI SysEx to load/save patches. That part is much easier with virtual! Just save the project, and your studio is saved!

Speaking of Pro Audio 9, I think I first found Cakewalk 6 in a computer store, then upgraded to 9. I had previously seen a Mac sequencer demo at the music store, so I  asked a salesman in a computer store if there was anything decent for Windows PC. He suggested Cakewalk. Right on! ?

 

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

3 hours ago, abacab said:

I had previously seen a Mac sequencer demo at the music store, so I  asked a salesman in a computer store if there was anything decent for Windows PC. He suggested Cakewalk. Right on! ?

 

Lucky escape