Syntronik vs. Syntronik Samples in Sampletank

[David Baay]

To avoid further hijacking of Joe Bradford's post about Sampletank crashing, I decided to post this separately.

I was playing around with Syntronik 'patches' loaded in Sampletank, and found that some patches were silent above a certain velocity. After some head-scratching I figered out that the higher velocity samples were loaded into a second layer that was assigned to channel 2 by default. Specifically, there are several 12-velocity bass patches that consist of  two 6-velocity layers using high-velocity and and low-velocity sample sets. Subsequently, I found other patches with as many as 4 layers with only the first one sounding because layers 2, 3, and 4 were on channels 2, 3, and 4. This seems like a major patch-programming oversight...?

I was curious what the situation would be for the same patches in Syntronik, but when I looked at the basses, I found that  the browser only offered the two 6-velocity patches separately, not the two-layer 'multis'.  Likewise, a 4-layer keyboard patch in Sampletank had only the single layer for which the patch was named in Syntronik though it's capable of layering up to 4 sounds, I believe.

So... why isn't Syntronik seeing its own multis? I haven't yet installed any of Smapletank's sound sets, so everything it's seeing is from the Syntronik installation.

P.S. In the course of looking into this, I figured out that all of Syntronik's synth UIs are just a re-skinning of the Sampletank's 'Edit Instrument' UI,  sometimes with different scales on a control, but with equivalent range and increments. And since it uses the same set of built-in effects, a given patch sounds essentially identical in the two 'synths'. Curiously, though, when I tried to get them to null,  aside from minor differences due to unsynced LFOs and such, I found that Syntronik was consistently rendering audio 48 samples (1ms) later than Sampletank when playing via live MIDI or recording audio in real time.  I didn't get around to comparing the rendering of existing MIDI. 

Just thought I would share this insight for the benefit of anyone who might be curious about whether there's any difference between loading Syntronik and loading its patches in Sampletank. To me, the big advantage of using Sampletank is that you don't have to deal with the pointless (other than cool-factor) graphical rearrangement of the editing UI for the 'different' synths that are assocated with sample sets from their respective hardware cousins. You can just learn Sampletank's UI, and be done with it.

[JoeGBradford]

Thanks for that very interesting! I've not got round to Syntronik yet  though I already had Memory V and Syntronik Free. Been enjoying the Orchestral and Cinematic Percussion this afternoon (though my neighbours probably haven't ? )

[Skyline_UK]

I've only just bought the entry level Sample Tank 4, and was probably going to download the free Syntronik.  But am I seeing here that Syntronik sounds are actually comprised of sounds I already have in ST4, so I don't really need it?

[abacab]

21 hours ago, David Baay said:

I was playing around with Syntronik 'patches' loaded in Sampletank, and found that some patches were silent above a certain velocity. After some head-scratching I figered out that the higher velocity samples were loaded into a second layer that was assigned to channel 2 by default. Specifically, there are several 12-velocity bass patches that consist of  two 6-velocity layers using high-velocity and and low-velocity sample sets. Subsequently, I found other patches with as many as 4 layers with only the first one sounding because layers 2, 3, and 4 were on channels 2, 3, and 4. This seems like a major patch-programming oversight...?

I was curious what the situation would be for the same patches in Syntronik, but when I looked at the basses, I found that  the browser only offered the two 6-velocity patches separately, not the two-layer 'multis'.  Likewise, a 4-layer keyboard patch in Sampletank had only the single layer for which the patch was named in Syntronik though it's capable of layering up to 4 sounds, I believe.

So... why isn't Syntronik seeing its own multis? I haven't yet installed any of Smapletank's sound sets, so everything it's seeing is from the Syntronik installation.

Good catch!

By default, the parts in a blank SampleTank 4 parts view are assigned consecutively to MIDI channels 1-16, where in the native Syntronik UI, the parts are all assigned to "omni".

So when loading the preset Syntronic multis from within SampleTank 4, the multi  parts all seem to load with consecutive MIDI channels (1, 2, 3, 4,etc.) assigned, which means only the first part on MIDI channel 1 will respond, until you set all parts to channel 1.

This only seems to be a programming  oversight for ST4 with the preset Syntronic multis, as I checked some of the other preset multis for ST4 , which had all parts assigned correctly to channel 1 when loaded.

The native Syntronic UI does have preset multis, but they appear in a different menu from the main browser in the Syntronik UI. Look for the dropdown menu within the multi view. The main browser only offers single patches, but does have the building blocks for creating your own multi velocity layers.

[David Baay]

52 minutes ago, abacab said:

The native Syntronic UI does have preset multis, but they appear in a different menu from the main browser in the Syntronik UI. Look for the dropdown menu within the multi view.

Thanks abacab,  I figured it might be something like that. Still finding my way around the UIs, and haven't been through the Syntronik manual yet.

Thanks for confirmation on the layer-channeling issue. Will have to ping IK about that. 

[abacab]

I do recall seeing a feature request somewhere, I think it was on the IK Syntronik forum, regarding the ability to assign MIDI channels to the multi parts.

Don't think that feature ever got any traction with the devs, as a workaround was always to just use the SampleTank UI.

As you also pointed out, there are some advantages to using the SampleTank UI. Plus they  seem to have ported most of the good stuff from Syntronik, such as  the cool FX rack, over to the SampleTank 4 UI.

[JoeGBradford]

I've just been looking at Syntronik and ST4 this afternoon and was pleased that the FX rack was the same in both

Trying to decide if there any advantages to using the Syntronik interface apart from the text being clearer? I must find those multis tomorrow!

[abacab]

10 hours ago, Skyline_UK said:

I've only just bought the entry level Sample Tank 4, and was probably going to download the free Syntronik.  But am I seeing here that Syntronik sounds are actually comprised of sounds I already have in ST4, so I don't really need it?

You can use any Syntronik instruments,  or Syntronik Free,  that  you already have,  in ST4. They will show up as separate sound libraries in the browser view.

As far as I know SampleTank 4 SE doesn't include any Syntronik instruments. But it does add some new synth instruments for SampleTank 4. As far as I can tell they are not the same thing as Syntronik, but they could have borrowed some samples from Syntronik to create new presets from, IDK.

In fact, ST4 MAX includes about 19GB of "new" synth sound content. This appears to be major overkill if you already have Syntronik, IMO.

[David Baay]

Checked out loading multis in Syntronik.  Turns out part of what I was missing is that you have to click in the center of of the browser/selection field within the Multi Panel. If you click on the layers  icon at the left end, you get no dropdown - not very intuitive.

So I can see and load multis, but the ones I edited in Sampletank to set all layers to channel 1 and re-saved now throw an "Instrument not authorized' error for each layer in Syntronik. I found a thread referencing this on KVR, but it implied this would only happen if you edited the individual instruments and/or changed names, and tried to share it with another user.

I didn't change anything but the channel assignments, so it's not really  clear what's going on here, but I'm guessing that reinstalling the relevant sound set will fix it. Fortunately I only modded a handful of multis. 

Not cool that making such a minor edit breaks the authorization.

No crashes here, yet, but IK not making a really good first impression on me, otherwise.

EDIT: Extracted the Syntronik_Multis.zip file, and manually copied just the 4 affected  .st3m files back over my significantly larger, modded ones, and Syntronik is happy to load them now.

EDIT 2:  Just out of curiosity, I manually modified the MIDI channel tag for the second 'part'  in the XML-style .st3m file using a text editor (note that part and channel numbering starts at 0), and it loads to Sampletank with the correct behavior, and still loads to Syntronik as well.

Edited May 4, 2020 by David Baay

[JoeGBradford]

Phew that all sounds a bit complicated! They should really work seamlessly together. A bit of a rewrite required for IK I think!

[JoeGBradford]

I should mention it's a while since I've had a crash now. I don't think I have had one since I finished going through the ST3 sounds and moved on to the 'extras' and Syntronik

Of course I have probably just tempted fate!

[abacab]

1 hour ago, David Baay said:

So I can see and load multis, but the ones I edited in Sampletank to set all layers to channel 1 and re-saved now throw an "Instrument not authorized' error for each layer in Syntronik. I found a thread referencing this on KVR, but it implied this would only happen if you edited the individual instruments and/or changed names, and tried to share it with another user.

I didn't change anything but the channel assignments, so it's not really  clear what's going on here, but I'm guessing that reinstalling the relevant sound set will fix it. Fortunately I only modded a handful of multis. 

Not cool that making such a minor edit breaks the authorization.

No crashes here, yet, but IK not making a really good first impression on me, otherwise.

Yep, confirmed it here. Got the same result after editing and saving just the Syntronik bass multis from ST4.

This is probably worth opening a ticket with IK.

[abacab]

1 hour ago, David Baay said:

EDIT: Extracted the Syntronik_Multis.zip file, and manually copied just the 4 affected  .st3m files back over my significantly larger, modded ones, and Syntronik is happy to load them now.

EDIT 2:  Just out of curiosity, I manually modified the MIDI channel tag for the second 'part'  in the XML-style .st3m file using a text editor (note that part and channel numbering starts at 0), and it loads to Sampletank with the correct behavior, and still loads to Syntronik as well.

Very interesting! Surprised that they share data.

There must be something else that the "save" operation does in ST4 beyond just modifying the MIDI channel tag in the .st3m file!

[David Baay]

Yeah, makes me wonder if saving changes from ST3 would not have broken the authorization. I didn't stop to look and see what was in the modded files to make them so much larger.

[abacab]

15 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Yeah, makes me wonder if saving changes from ST3 would not have broken the authorization. I didn't stop to look and see what was in the modded files to make them so much larger.

Funny thing, ST3 throws the same error as Syntronik when opening an edited Syntronik  multi from ST4.

But if you open any other Syntronik multi in ST3, all parts are defaulted to MIDI channel 1.

So as you suggested, opening up the Syntronik multis in ST3, then just saving with no edits works! It changes the multi to channel 1 across the board in ST4, and it still opens up in Syntronik without throwing an error!

[David Baay]

Cool. Let me know when you're done re-saving them all, and I'll ping you an e-mail address. ?

[abacab]

Ha! Another task for a rainy day!

[David Baay]

Could be done pretty quickly with a little batch scripting, but I think we should make IK Dev do it. 

[abacab]

13 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Could be done pretty quickly with a little batch scripting, but I think we should make IK Dev do it. 

@Peter - IK Multimedia

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Using the official installers should require no scripting, should see the multis for the appropriate product, etc.  If you are not experiencing this, please let IK Support know at http://www.ikmultimedia.com/contact-support/ and they will be able to assist you and get you where you need to be.

As far as general installation comments, we have posted in multiple places that a new download/install/authorization manager is coming.  Stay tuned for news on that.

If you aren't having problems but are requesting features, the official wish list threads on the IK Forum are where those can be posted and seen by the right people.

Thank you.