Private Message Complaint

[Michael Vogel]

I wonder what this person thinks the SONGS Forum is for.  Apparently it does take all kinds. Less of that kind would be better I think. 

Sing on LGA. 

[Larry Graham Alexander]

4 minutes ago, Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL) said:

I wonder what this person thinks the SONGS Forum is for.  Apparently it does take all kinds. Less of that kind would be better I think. 

Sing on LGA. 

Now, now, Mister Michael.  He's entitled to his opinion (and so are you).  ?

I appreciate your input.  Thank you.

Larry Graham Alexander

 

[ensconced]

21 hours ago, Larry Graham Alexander said:

 

This is my answer to him:

I have been composing and teaching music theory for seventy years since I was sixteen-years-old. 

What say you?

Larry

 

 

70 + 16 = 86

If I were you I wouldn't worry what anyone said or thought, I would posting as many songs as I could as quick as I could while I was still above ground.

Edited January 29, 2020 by ensconced

[SPAK]

You joined a month ago ... and someone responded with .. you have posted too many ORIGINAL compositions , for goodness sake ( or FFS ) you have comments from people here some of which are real musoes and respected for their views .. let it go and get on with the thing/stuff you love ...it's just a distraction from an armhole (Ed)........ (where did my 'S' go ?)

SPAK

 

[paulo]

Larry,

First off let me say that I haven't posted anything of mine in the songs forum for many years now so I have no horse in the race, so to speak, and I'm only offering an opinion here because that's what you asked for. Going by what you have said there's a fair chance that what follows may contain an opinion or two that you might not want to hear, but that's what happens if you ask people for opinions, so either buckle up in case the ride gets but a bit bumpy for your liking or don't bother reading any further. Either way, no malice is intended.

My first thought was why you chose to respond to a PM in the public forum? Not only that, but in a different part of the public forum to that from which the issue arose? If your idea was solely to gather the thoughts of other forum members I would have thought that putting this thread in the Songs forum would have been more appropriate and to the point. You seem to have mostly supportive responses here, but maybe the feeling would be different amongst the people who actually post in the songs forum? 

Anyway, I'm by no means a regular visitor to  the SF these days, so to get a better understanding of why the mystery complainant felt the need to say something to you I just had a quick scoot over the SF going back to the turn of the year (4 pages). A quick glance suggests that roughly half of all the songs posted there are yours, so getting towards 80 separate pieces in 29 days. If I were a SF poster...

would I think this a bit excessive? Yes.

Would it come across as blatant disregard for anyone else's chances of having their work heard? Yes?

Would it seem like you felt your work was somehow more important than anyone else's? Yes. 

One of the replies here suggests that whoever complained must be one of those thin skinned types who is just jealous because it took them two years to come up with something they felt brave enough to submit for criticism and maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. Anyone who has been around the songs forum long enough will have seen for themselves that there have always been a few that would benefit from a little thickening in the skin department, but also imagine being a regular skinned person who has spent countless hours making something as best as they can before finally plucking up the courage to put it out there only to see it more or less instantly removed from sight by one person constantly posting thread after thread of their own stuff. Unless you are of the tactical bumping types very few threads ever attract any attention once they drop off the first page, so that's your chance of any feedback more or less gone.

I have never fully heard any of your compositions, so have no idea how good bad or indifferent they may be or whether I would "learn something" from listening or not, maybe I would maybe I wouldn't, but seeing one person attempting to dominate the forum with their own work was always a sure fire way to make me not listen to any of them, so conversely posting too many threads at a time can be counter productive in regard to the amount of feedback you might get. Again at the same quick glance, roughly half of your many recent posts have 0 replies. Take that how you will, but I would see it as the forum telling me something.

You mentioned your age and my first reaction was...so what? Why does your age make any difference? But then I thought...ok maybe you realise that your days on the right side of the grass are likely fewer than some others here and you want to get your work out there quick because who knows, right? Fair enough, but a solution to that could have been to make one thread linking to all of your compositions on your website so if anyone wants to listen to them all, they have them all at their disposal, just like now except there's still plenty of room on each page for Not The Larry Graham Alexander Show.

I take your point that you do not do this for personal gain or self promotion and I wonder if this is a reference to whoever complained to you? Whether it is or not, those types are also quite tiresome to me, but I long ago decided that if they are so desperate for attention, then let them have it. "I made a fortune from my time in the Cakewalk forum" said nobody ever.

In summary, the way I see it is this........the songs forum works best when everybody who posts their work takes other posters into consideration, be that in terms of occasionally taking an interest in the works of others seeing as you are asking them to do you that favour, or not appearing to look like you think of it as your personal domain. Any behaviour that causes bad feeling really is to the detriment of the entire forum. I don't like petty rules and I don't like those who get a kick out of trying to enforce them because there really shouldn't be a need for rules in something like this. Simple common courtesy should see everything ticking along just fine. There are of course those that can take offence at almost anything, but it seems that there is nothing that can be done about them. At least they are happy in their own way because presumably they get up each day looking for something to be offended by. In this case though, I would say that whoever complained to you maybe has a point?

(CH thinks: FFS Paulo the last sentence would have been enough. Can we get please just get back to the becan now?)
 

[Starise]

I can't infer a motive for why people do what they do, yet I would agree that actions speak louder than words. 

I believe some of this has to do with how a person sees a songs forum. Everyone wants their material to be heard and there are a few that go around to these forums strictly so that they can get their play numbers up on whatever social medial platform they are using. Nothing wrong with  posting to multiple sites. I have done that in the past too. My motive in that case was to get the track heard not to boost play counts.

 I just think that there is a give and take even if it is unspoken and I guess why some forums have made it a rule that in order to post one must also listen and comment. Most if not all on the Cakewalk songs forum do this gladly and enjoy the process. I don't tend to respond to those who never comment on anything anyone else does. I know people are busy  and sometimes it happens on occasion. I'm talking about a trend with a person. If I see a trend like that, I simply ignore them. Is that a bad way to look at it? I don't know.  If you don't care about my stuff guess what?  I know there's a  of back slapping going on, but we need that and we need for people who mix and play to comment. This has been happening for the most part.

FYI, I'm going to say something that most here already are well aware of. This forum is largely made up of those who have a taste for Rock and Pop music, so  if I post a classical music track my expectations are pretty low here that many will really care for it. I knew this going into it. It isn't their thing. That's ok.

Not saying anyone else has to abide by this because I guess there are no real written rules. If and when I post any track I post ONE track. Then I listen to others tracks and do my best to comment on all of the ones that were most recent to the best of my ability. Then I wait awhile to see if anyone listens to the track I posted. They always listen and comment, even if they don't much care for the genre which I think really says something good about the songs forum. 

After a few comments on my track I just let it go after I respond. I have been known to intentionally comment on other tracks if I see someone recently posted and my track is toward the top. I'm actually trying to bury my track at that point. The way I figure it. I'm not in this to stay at the top and keep pushing my tracks. I made the music. I posted the music. I received comments. I commented. On to the next one. Everyone deserves a turn. 

I hesitate to say this, Larry could have already driven the nail in the coffin so to speak.  If I posted umpteen tracks, never supported anyone else. Went to another place to complain about a comment someone made in private to me. Then touted what a pro I was compared to the other people here citing my experience and training. Yeah, the nail has likely been driven.

[DeeringAmps]

Forum etiquette, you want others to listen and comment, you listen and comment. Thank you Starise.

t

[Tezza]

I don't post my original songs in the songs forum because I worry about copyright issues, people nicking your songs and making millions from them. Some of mine are earning me money and I've got awards from them. I've yet to put anything there but I have a couple of old Jazz standards (covers) that I am planning to put up. You don't worry about copyright?

Listening to your songs, they would be a film composers dream come true.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Tezza

[slartabartfast]

O. K. So if you got a private message, why not reply to it privately?

The messenger apparently did not want to publicly shame you, or let us all know what he was thinking else he would have done it publicly. He is clearly not trying to boost his post count or elevate his level of esteem among his peers with his comment. He is not in any position to set out a criterion for other posters, so why would his comments be of interest to the rest of us. If you believe you do not have some kind of general permission to post, and are trying to assess the consensus of the other forum members, relax. Most of us do not care a bit how much you post, and most do not even bother to listen, let alone comment, on the efforts accessible in the Songs forum. You have my permission to post as much as you like, and my envy for your ability to create enough material to annoy anyone. I am greatly impressed by your experience, education and credentials and suitably envious of these as well. 

[Christian Jones]

10 hours ago, paulo said:

Larry,

First off let me say that I haven't posted anything of mine in the songs forum for many years now so I have no horse in the race, so to speak, and I'm only offering an opinion here because that's what you asked for. Going by what you have said there's a fair chance that what follows may contain an opinion or two that you might not want to hear, but that's what happens if you ask people for opinions, so either buckle up in case the ride gets but a bit bumpy for your liking or don't bother reading any further. Either way, no malice is intended.

My first thought was why you chose to respond to a PM in the public forum? Not only that, but in a different part of the public forum to that from which the issue arose? If your idea was solely to gather the thoughts of other forum members I would have thought that putting this thread in the Songs forum would have been more appropriate and to the point. You seem to have mostly supportive responses here, but maybe the feeling would be different amongst the people who actually post in the songs forum? 

Anyway, I'm by no means a regular visitor to  the SF these days, so to get a better understanding of why the mystery complainant felt the need to say something to you I just had a quick scoot over the SF going back to the turn of the year (4 pages). A quick glance suggests that roughly half of all the songs posted there are yours, so getting towards 80 separate pieces in 29 days. If I were a SF poster...

would I think this a bit excessive? Yes.

Would it come across as blatant disregard for anyone else's chances of having their work heard? Yes?

Would it seem like you felt your work was somehow more important than anyone else's? Yes. 

One of the replies here suggests that whoever complained must be one of those thin skinned types who is just jealous because it took them two years to come up with something they felt brave enough to submit for criticism and maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. Anyone who has been around the songs forum long enough will have seen for themselves that there have always been a few that would benefit from a little thickening in the skin department, but also imagine being a regular skinned person who has spent countless hours making something as best as they can before finally plucking up the courage to put it out there only to see it more or less instantly removed from sight by one person constantly posting thread after thread of their own stuff. Unless you are of the tactical bumping types very few threads ever attract any attention once they drop off the first page, so that's your chance of any feedback more or less gone.

I have never fully heard any of your compositions, so have no idea how good bad or indifferent they may be or whether I would "learn something" from listening or not, maybe I would maybe I wouldn't, but seeing one person attempting to dominate the forum with their own work was always a sure fire way to make me not listen to any of them, so conversely posting too many threads at a time can be counter productive in regard to the amount of feedback you might get. Again at the same quick glance, roughly half of your many recent posts have 0 replies. Take that how you will, but I would see it as the forum telling me something.

You mentioned your age and my first reaction was...so what? Why does your age make any difference? But then I thought...ok maybe you realise that your days on the right side of the grass are likely fewer than some others here and you want to get your work out there quick because who knows, right? Fair enough, but a solution to that could have been to make one thread linking to all of your compositions on your website so if anyone wants to listen to them all, they have them all at their disposal, just like now except there's still plenty of room on each page for Not The Larry Graham Alexander Show.

I take your point that you do not do this for personal gain or self promotion and I wonder if this is a reference to whoever complained to you? Whether it is or not, those types are also quite tiresome to me, but I long ago decided that if they are so desperate for attention, then let them have it. "I made a fortune from my time in the Cakewalk forum" said nobody ever.

In summary, the way I see it is this........the songs forum works best when everybody who posts their work takes other posters into consideration, be that in terms of occasionally taking an interest in the works of others seeing as you are asking them to do you that favour, or not appearing to look like you think of it as your personal domain. Any behaviour that causes bad feeling really is to the detriment of the entire forum. I don't like petty rules and I don't like those who get a kick out of trying to enforce them because there really shouldn't be a need for rules in something like this. Simple common courtesy should see everything ticking along just fine. There are of course those that can take offence at almost anything, but it seems that there is nothing that can be done about them. At least they are happy in their own way because presumably they get up each day looking for something to be offended by. In this case though, I would say that whoever complained to you maybe has a point?

(CH thinks: FFS Paulo the last sentence would have been enough. Can we get please just get back to the becan now?)
 

Thanks for the evening read ?

Agree for the most part and in general those who post excessively anywhere don't get many listens, that's just how it is - everywhere. It's like this guy here in Seattle who posts ads in a well known artist publication in the Musicians section.. he's been posting the same ads for the last 10+ years trying to start an avant rock band and he drives people crazy as he posts like 4 to 6 iterations of the same ad in a row almost daily, and the consensus is that's why he's been trying to start his band up for the last 10+ years. 

[paulo]

14 hours ago, Christian Jones said:

Thanks for the evening read ?

You're welcome. I've got more if you ever get bored....?

Yeah, I know, never that bored, right?

If I were a local, part of me would be tempted to arrange a meet with that band guy just out of sheer morbid curiosity, but a bigger part of me would scream hell no as it's probably a serial killer with a grudge against alternative musician types using the ads as bait....... no,no Christian - do not bring your drummer friend with you. When I meet people for the first time I prefer it to be one on one........bwah hah hah......(obvs he's only thinking that bit, because it would be a bit of a giveaway if he actually bwah hah hah'ed.)

Edited January 30, 2020 by paulo

[Wibbles]

21 hours ago, paulo said:

I just had a quick scoot over the SF going back to the turn of the year (4 pages). A quick glance suggests that roughly half of all the songs posted there are yours, so getting towards 80 separate pieces in 29 days.

Yet another Larry needs their own sub-forum. 

[Starise]

15 hours ago, Tezza said:

I don't post my original songs in the songs forum because I worry about copyright issues, people nicking your songs and making millions from them. Some of mine are earning me money and I've got awards from them. I've yet to put anything there but I have a couple of old Jazz standards (covers) that I am planning to put up. You don't worry about copyright?

Listening to your songs, they would be a film composers dream come true.

You make an important point here. Most for money composers don't post in songs forums unless it's a few sample tracks. If you intend to present your work to a music library or sell it you probably don't want to post it there if you think someone might take it. Precautions can be taken, such as streaming from a website that you privately own or locking downloads on SC. Still no guarantees, but it's a chance you take.

Playing devil's advocate here, getting the kind of mixing advice you can get from an experienced mixing engineer is invaluable. Getting that advice for free on a song's forum is a real benefit if you are mixing and mastering your own music. Sometimes it's valuable to get a composition idea  that you might have never thought of. You can't really get that kind of advice anywhere else unless you go into a studio and pay for one single subjective opinion. It's up to the musician to decide if the advice might be something they could use. Many of these guys have nice studio setup with expensive monitors in treated rooms. I have tuned monitors in my studio, so I can give an accurate description of what I hear.  A mixing engineer is still a mixing engineer whether they are payed for it or it's an expensive hobby. Musicians give the best advice on music to other musicians usually. Many musicians will post music before master for opinions. Most of the music is beyond reproach. Not much to nit about. Some of the people are beginners or just old guys who need to learn a few things (like me).....so the advice is helpful there.

Thanks for your comments. I guess I don't much care. I am not smart enough to know how to market anything . I couldn't sell water to people in hell...

Soundcloud has a way to post music for sale. I have that capability. I guess I should look into it, but my expectations are low. Film composers are a dime a dozen. It's mainly just fun for me. I need a bud who has some marketing chops. If left to fend for myself  I would surely starve  TBH I don't think most of those tracks are quite ready for prime time either.

I worked with one vocalist who picked up a writing partner in Denmark or Somewhere close to there. They both clicked and so made an album. I seen it was for sale on my FB. I want to say they could live off of it, but I doubt it will fly that far, even though it is quite good. I guess this is how I see money for music in general.

[bayoubill]

Here's my contribution to the private message Fred

[DeeringAmps]

We’ve drifted off topic, but what the hay; we are in the coffee house!

t

[InstrEd]

1 hour ago, bayoubill said:

Here's my contribution to the private message Fred

What a foolish waste of condiments!

Next time use the salt and sugar instead ?

[bayoubill]

52 minutes ago, InstrEd said:

What a foolish waste of condiments!

Next time use the salt and sugar instead ?

not for the next guy that comes in! All they need is fries and then all they have to do is wipe

Edited January 30, 2020 by bayoubill
I once asked a stable owner if his horse smoked. He said well no so I told him his stable was on fire

[InstrEd]

31 minutes ago, bayoubill said:

not for the next guy that comes in! All they need is fries and then all they have to do is wipe

okay you got me there as I know a few folks who would do just that ?

[Byron Dickens]

I wouldn't bother replying. 

[David Baay]

I would suggest it's just common courtesy to share the bandwidth of the front page of the songs forum, and not post so many individual threads so quickly that one is taking up an undue fraction of the available 'slots'.  If one really has no interest in self-promotion, gratification or getting feedback on individual tunes with the goal of improving them, why not just link a bunch of stuff in a single post or just link the top level of your site?

I would also suggest that one needs to be doubly conscious of this when posting stuff from a large historical body of work. It seems to me that the primary intent of the forum is to showcase, celebrate and engage in critiquing what people are actively working on at the moment.