winkpain

Yup. thanks! Will do...

Thanks again, Bill. I've poured over the Cakewalk specific help section in Melodyne and see nothing related to keystrokes there. And on closer investigation, it seems that Melodyne only maintains the undo history while in focus, perhaps this is what you were meaning. I can, in fact, use Ctrl-z to undo actions in Melodyne while in a "single session" of it being in focus, but if I pop out of the window to check something on the track view, for example, then pop back into Melodyne and choose the do a Ctrl-z then to undo the last Melodyne action, this is when it would simply undo the instantiation of Melodyne and undo all the work I had done in it up to that point. So this is just something to remember. It seems that my problems, then, are really with Cakewalk when using Spectral Layers (my only other ARA application) in ARA mode. None of my keystrokes while in the SL ARA window are given to the functions there. Cakewalk intercepts all of them. So no using the keyboard shortcuts associated with SL, and, more annoyingly, no ability to enter precise numerical values in data entry fields. Strangely, when opening a text field within SL ARA (to change a layer name or whatever), I can type text successfully! I am guessing that ARA is still in its growing/learning phase and not all applications play perfectly with each other yet. Although, I would be happy to be told otherwise!

Thanks, @Bill Phillips. I took the implied "check the help documentation" to heart. However, there was nothing there about keystrokes when in ARA mode with either product. I too am accustomed to keystrokes simply going to whatever window has focus. That is why I got confused when in these ARA applications that this does not happen by default. I'm curious: in your use of Melodyne within Cakewalk, can you be working in the Melodyne window, perform an action, and then use Ctrl-Z to undo that action in Melodyne? or does it simply undo the instantiation of Melodyne?? This second one is what happens for me.

Thank you for your response, but perhaps you meant it for another post? My current issue is how to give keystrokes to, specifically, Spectral Layers within the ARA integration. This is also desired for Melodyne as well, it is true, but even so the help section there, "Melodyne in Cakewalk with ARA" nor the help section in Spectral Layers mention anything about keystrokes while in ARA mode. I guess I could put the question more succinctly as: In Cakewalk, when using a plugin, there is an option in the upper right corner of the plugin window to toggle "Give all keystrokes to plug-in" (pictured). Where is this same function for an ARA "plugin" ??

How do I give keystrokes (data entry, keyboard shortcuts, etc.) to my ARA region FX window?? For example: I have opened a track in a Spectral Layers Region FX window and want to use my SL workflow with its corresponding shortcuts and other computer keyboard entries to edit the clip within that environment, but the Cakewalk shortcuts currently maintain when in the SL Region FX (or other ARA) window. A couple obvious scenarios are: using Ctrl-Z to UNDO my last edit in Spectral Layers will actually undo the adding of the Region FX (i.e., my last action in the Cakewalk environment), thereby removing Spectral Layers and all my edits therein however many I have done at that point! (this one is a major bummer after many edits!) highlighting a data entry point in the Spectral Layers window in order to type in a numerical value for the setting will not enter my typed value but rather successively choose the CW Screensets associated with the typed numerals. There must be a setting somewhere for this similar to giving keystokes to plugin windows, yes???

Ah, yes. I remember the VST3 migration topic now. I thought this was the case, and I have had those settings checked in my preferences, but I had forgotten. For a few of the Waves (which is supposed to be migration compliant) plugs, it seems to be not working but hopefully just a few... So, for the ones that don't support migration and the "Replace if possible..." setting, is there a clever way to get at the info saved by Cakewalk from it's "Stand-In" data so as to read it and recreate the "original plug-in state" manually ?

Is there any way to replace VST2 plugins in my older projects with their current VST3 versions and have the settings/state of the VST2 version carry over automatically to the VST3 replacement? For example, if I no longer have the VST2 version installed and have a project with many of them in the FX bins with their adjusted settings as desired, is there a way to simply add the VST3 versions of the same plugins and have their plugin states that were "remembered" by Cakewalk then applied to the newer versions?? I am talking about quite a large number of them from, for example, Waves and iZotope bundles that I decided when re-upping and economizing my system to not load the older versions as well as the new. I know I can simply go back and re-install the VST2 versions, but the question is: is that the only solution?

As mentioned above, this latter drag-and-drop tempo map issue is now successfully solved, but the earlier mentioned issue with editing tempos in a Melodyne region FX clip and its corrupted playback when "Follow Host Tempo" is checked still remain a problem.

Ah. Thanks (again), John. I was doing that, but now understand to choose EDIT on my original post. I was choosing it on my last one....

I can't remember: How do I edit the title of a post I started to mark it "SOLVED" ?

I haven't tried with a drag to MIDI track yet, but simply the dragging a clip recorded without click (so far I've been testing with guitar tracks which I vary time on intentionally for testing) to the time lime is working really quite well! To be concise and without extra steps: record a track (or bring one in) duplicate it sliding both clips (temporarily grouped) to where a chosen downbeat is at its chosen meter location (i.e. bar 2, beat 1), where you want your time to begin crop the "working" clip at that point and "Apply trimming" drag the working clip to timeline That's it. It's done. The tempo map comes in from that downbeat time and metronome follows the track from then on. The "working" track can then be discarded or archived as you wish. So far, only the most idiosyncratic tempo fluctuations (long dramatic pauses, changing strumming accents radically, etc.) will cause slight confusion. Otherwise, it's proven beat perfect so far!

Ah hah! Well, thank you again, @John Vere (I continue to chime in on my on post here for the benefit for those others confused by this - I will mark it "SOLVED" after a few more trouble free trials) and thanks to Mike @Creative Sauce for the above linked video and the inspiration to push me to a workflow solution! Doing this process following Mike's flow in the video I duplicated my track, keeping an untouched reference track (in order to have any lead in or pickup notes available after bringing in the map), I then cropped the work track to my first downbeat and then did an Apply Trimming to the clip. I then placed both tracks with that downbeat located at bar 2, beat 1. Then I did a Set Measure Beat at Now for that bar 2, beat 1 - just for good measure (heheheh). Then I dragged the working clip to the time bar to apply the Melodyne tempo map. THIS works! The tempo map is brought it with the anchor being the downbeat of the working clip being held to it's position in the meter. The visual feedback shows the waveforms and meter grid shifting with that first beat remaining anchored and no offset occurring, as I had wanted all along. This is the solution (I believe)! Mike's mentioning in his video (at about 12:38) about the trimming of the clip being an important part of the process turned a lightbulb on in my head. It would seem by this that it is the clip boundary, the first one, that is this "anchor point" to the meter grid from which the tempo map is then placed. (And if so the Set Measure/Beat step I mentioned above is, perhaps, not necessary.) Maybe those in the know are rolling their eyes now saying "Duh!" Perhaps I'm wowed by Melodyne's "knowing" that the downbeat as played is a downbeat of the meter (it guesses correctly almost always the meter, key, tempo, and appropriate downbeats in it's analysis. It is true, I am very wowed by Melodyne!) and I thought that all of this "knowledge" would be then shared and brought into Cakewalk with the drag-and-drop integration. Too much to hope for, I guess, but I'm happy now to at least know that this is how it works. If I have any of this wrong, please someone who knows, say so. And Mike, if you're reading, this is an even quicker way to get a tempo map to a track recorded without click - set the first beat, and let Melodyne do the rest!

The video is great, as are all Mike's (Creative Sauce) well laid out videos. It is really an alternate to my former go-to of "Set Measure/Beat at Now" as mentioned above. Hey thanks. Yes I did try adjusting the time base before dragging the clip, but it doesn't seem to matter as far as the offset goes. In any case, whatever time base I've chosen before the drag, the clip is automatically changed to Musical after the drag and the offset occurs.

Thanks for the replies, @John Vere ! I have tried with AudioSnap in the past and gave up there with not much luck as far as saving time goes. But I'll give it another go and watch this. I've found that, within CW itself, the only satisfactory way to "extract" a tempo map of a performance done without click is to just map it myself with Set Measure/Beat at Now. This is, of course, time consuming, and I guess I've allowed myself to be sold on the promise of the simple Melo./CW drag-and-drop. For sure Melodyne does an excellent job within itself of extracting the tempo with all it's nuances and applying it to the meter "grid". And as a workaround and if feasible I can do the work in Melodyne stand-alone and import the perfect tempo map created there and then separately import the audio file. Given the right insert point, then they are lined up. I just don't get the offset that happens with the ARA drag-and-drop technique. I've confirmed this now on two separate machines/installs of both Melodyne and Cakewalk (same versions each). I get it that the meter "grid" to audio wave form will visibly shift after inserting tempo changes, but there seems to be missing the concomitant anchoring of audio beats to their respective meter beats that occurs appropriately within Melodyne. This does not seem to transfer with the drag-and-drop technique, or in any case, it does so with this offset.

I guess I'm relinquishing this to the trash heap of unanswerable questions, but I figured I'd give it another go in case there is a lone Melodyne-Cakewalk expert user out there with any advice....... ??

Here is a video of what I'm talking about with the drag-and-drop tempo map issue. I have aligned the clip in question with its first downbeat falling on the 1 of bar 2 in CW. Melodyne has analyzed the track correctly. I drag to the timeline to apply tempo map, and as soon as I do the tempo map imports lined up with the measures in CW but the clip shifts out of sync, as you can see ( I then just toggle undo/redo in video to demonstrate the offset). The amount of this offset is different on different clips. This does not make sense to me, but is this how the ARA integration is supposed to work??

I'm really hoping someone here will chime in with experience with Melodyne in Cakewalk in the tempo department! My confusion is worsening, and I can only imagine there is something I'm not understanding with the ARA relationship between the two programs. I am fine (elated, in fact!) with Melodyne as a standalone and have no problems with its impeccable tempo (and meter) analysis and mapping, but it is only when using it as a plugin in CW that the bizarre (to me) behavior begins. Now I'm finding that in a totally new project that dragging the audio file to the time bar (for Melodyne tempo map application) is not working as expected. A tempo map comes in, but upon playback it is not in sync with the audio. It seems offset, but by what amount and for what reason, I have no idea. It is an acoustic guitar track recorded without click, so mildly fluctuating tempo. The file begins at the zero mark. Turning on Region FX for Melodyne on the track performs the analysis, and auditioning the detected tempo within Melodyne (with "Assign tempo" and Melodyne's metronome on) proves a perfect match with Melodyne marking the first downbeat as the 1 of the 4/4 bar. The recorded audio clip, of course, starts with a bit of silence before playing began. When dragging the perfect tempo map from the Melodyne clip to the time bar, the audio gets "shifted" it seems, and although the tempo map now in CW visually matches the one in Melodyne, the clip does not play back in sync with the CW metronome. Visually, the beats on the grid do not match where they fall in the clip. CW, of course, shows the 1 of bar 1 as being the beginning of the clip. The clip played within Melodyne with the Mel. metronome on still sounds perfect all the way through as well as it's time grid corresponding with beats in the visible file . If I drag or slide the file position on the track within CW to match up with beat and bar (say, to begin on beat 1 of bar 2 in CW), the tempo map in CW does not, of course, slide along with it and the audio will be quite out of sync with the (CW) metronome within several bars, but it was out of sync to begin with. In any case, the literature on this makes it sound so easy: drag and drop, and Boom! you have tempo map that follows the recorded track. I see nothing about having to adjust anything afterwards. Are there settings somewhere that need to be a certain way for this transfer of tempo information to work just so?? It seems to be something in the nature of the ARA relationship and how Melodyne "knows" where bar 1 begins whereas Cakewalk thinks bar 1 begins at the 00:00:00:00 of the file. I don't know... Does anybody??

Any ideas why CW can't seem to handle playback of a Melodyne clip with "Follow host tempo" chosen in the above example??

I have no issue with dragging to the time line. The track currently in question is a guitar track, and dragging it to apply the track's tempo ends up working perfectly. It is only when I want the Melodyne analyzed track/clip to "Follow Host Tempo" that the problems begin.

Two separate things. Extracting the tempo by dragging the clip to the time bar is what I meant above by, "first apply the Melodyne detected tempo map to the project". That is not a problem, in fact it works quite well. This is making Cakewalk "follow" the tempo of the clip so to speak. The issue is if I want to then alter the tempo of the Melodyne clip to follow the tempo in CW. The "smoothing" of tempo in Cakewalk (adjusting it any way desired) is what requires the clip to "Follow host tempo" as is available in the Region FX context menu on the Melodyne clip. Whenever I choose this, all hell breaks loose!

Totally agreed! I'm all for keeping this thread afloat in the mix. I'm right there with you with 20 years using Cakewalk. I have used others as well, not Studio One, however. But only have CW (and Ableton for very specific purposes) as a DAW now. And I have been absolutely delighted at the the care and attention the Bandlab parentage has brought into it. Let's hope the momentum of the Arranger and Articulations additions will help push along these further additions! Chord and Meter tracks!!! (and an improved Staff view!!)

[Only my second problem, which developed as this post progressed, is solved. The Follow Host Tempo issue remains.] I am trying to get an understanding of how Melodyne integrates with CW, specifically regarding tempo. With the ARA integration I understood that it should be fairly seamless in the CW environment. However, working with a track recorded without click and having its natural (but not drastic) fluctuations, I am having what seem serious issues. I do the following: Choose the track and create the Melodyne Region Melodyne analyzes the tempo I listen within Melodyne to its native click which varies with my recorded track and it's spot on I then "Confirm" Melodyne's tempo detection and choose for this clip to Follow Project tempo so that Melodyne will adjust the clip to follow whatever tempo that I choose within CW. This is as instructed in the manual which then says: This however makes no changes to the Melodyne clip and its tempo and Cakewalk's tempo are not in sync and playback stutters like mentioned below. I can, in fact, only get the expected corrected tempo results if I: first apply the Melodyne detected tempo map to the project THEN tell Melodyne to Follow Host Tempo and THEN adjust the tempo variations within CW in order to have the clip follow these new tempos However, at this point the playback of the project begins to fail utterly, without any dropouts or halting of the audio device, but the playback stutters with clicks and pops and visual stuttering of the playback head as well. This in a new project with only this one clip of about 6 seconds, no other current tracks, no VSTs added, and an ASIO buffer size of 1024. It is repeatable after closing, reopening, and starting fresh again. I can say that if, after the second process above and even though playback through Melodyne is corrupted, I can Bounce to Clip to commit the Melodyne adjustments and then the clip plays back fine and as expected. But surely CW should be able to playback the Melodyne clip with just a few subtle tempo adjustments! I have poured over the manuals, I do not see what else I should be doing. What is it I am missing??

Well, that's mighty nice. But a bit of a flaunt as I'm using Cakewalk ;-) (and I use Sibelius for notation) But it would be great if we had something like this here in CW !

That all sounds smart. I've never used Studio One. I would love to have these layered auxiliary tracks in CW, especially for Chord, key, and time sig. (these last two separately editable, as I say). And all of them "smartly" behaving, of course, respecting transpositions of key and such. I particularly like the way the Time Signature strip works in Melodyne , smartly compensating existing meters if you add new changes in odd locations; allowing you to double-click an insert point and just type in the numerator (top) value if the bottom is to stay the same. The meter and chord tracks then being able to be visible above Track and Piano Roll views as simple (colored, perhaps!) markers (as opposed to the current "Window" view style only) would be a huge boon for more music compositional oriented workflows. I hope it is a possibility and a likely one here!

Excellent! That's it precisely! Your knowledge here is concise and vast, scook. Thank you! Any idea how to work around editing song key signature without the time signature coupling?