creating a reference track

[JnTuneTech]

FWIW - There are many variations in quality & balance even in the sources you get your reference tracks from, so it can be difficult, even incorrect, to use some of them to master, especially using tools like Tonal Balance, etc.  In many cases, you may be much better off using material created locally, as mentioned above, that you already like the results of. -Just using commercially available tracks, from say a CD, are great for getting arrangements and mixing cues from, but not always tonal balance.

In my workflow, for many years, I have used a lot of commercially available song material as reference, and the quality & usefulness of them varies widely. Also, having worked in and around record stores (remember those?) for many years, I have literally heard dozens of versions of the same, always "remastered" material. -Right.

Typically, as per much of the conversation here, I will either rip a CD track, or if I can lately, source a BD audio or download version I want as reference material. Then I use an old free audio converter to re-sample the track to my project profile. -This is simply a personal preference, as Cakewalk does a great job of resampling on its own, when I have used it that way, to be clear. Then, I will import the track into my project and point the output of that track to my primary audio output. -I also make sure the track has no FX or sends, etc., in case those might have snuck in from using a template of some kind.

It's disappointing how many versions and quality levels of material you will get, from say one artist's works, in available commercial audio. -And then there's the alternate "popular" source - online video renditions, most not even official, much less professional transfers, that get in the way...   -In any case, be careful of what you use for a reference, and how you use it. Trying to analyze tonal balance from mud will produce mud, so try and trust your ears first. And/or find a real, good-sounding mix or track you managed to create on your own, and reference it, as mentioned earlier. -Personally, I love using commercial tracks as a general example, and primarily to get closer to the arrangement and mixing balances, -if that is the goal. -But not really for exacting tonal matches. -Of course, your mileage may vary!

 

[bitflipper]

I haven't used references in years. Best reference is to listen to lots of well-made records on your monitors. Over just a few hours, you will subconsciously acquire a sense of what a well-made record sounds like on your speakers. It's a real phenomenon. I had originally read about it in a book on psychoacoustics, but can't remember now which book it was. I believe it's a real thing. It could even explain why some people insist that you have to "break in" your speakers, which I believe is nonsense.

[greg54]

Thanks, John Nelson!

John Vere:  I want to use reference tracks only to compare mix balance.  Others have commented that I can't use a reference track in mixing because a mix is being compared to a mastered song.  But all I want it for is to check mixes.   Thanks!

[greg54]

21 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

Just using commercially available tracks, from say a CD, are great for getting arrangements and mixing cues from, but not always tonal balance.

I'm new at mixing, so I began by asking how to get a reference track from a CD.   I've watched videos and read opinions.  I'm just trying to find what works.   Thanks!

[greg54]

11 hours ago, bitflipper said:

I haven't used references in years. Best reference is to listen to lots of well-made records on your monitors. Over just a few hours, you will subconsciously acquire a sense of what a well-made record sounds like on your speakers. It's a real phenomenon. I had originally read about it in a book on psychoacoustics, but can't remember now which book it was. I believe it's a real thing. It could even explain why some people insist that you have to "break in" your speakers, which I believe is nonsense.

I want to compare my songs to reference tracks only to get an idea of how "professionals" are mixing the bass along with the drums, and to get an idea of the vocals.  I want to get ideas from them, but not clone their sound.  Thanks!

[Lynn Wilson]

You don't even need your reference track to be in CW for comparisons.  You could cue up the reference song in another program such as Sound Forge, Audacity, or even Windows Media.  You just need to match volume levels between your mix and reference track and switch between them in the task bar.  It doesn't have to be complicated.

[John Vere]

49 minutes ago, Lynn Wilson said:

You don't even need your reference track to be in CW for comparisons.  You could cue up the reference song in another program such as Sound Forge, Audacity, or even Windows Media.  You just need to match volume levels between your mix and reference track and switch between them in the task bar.  It doesn't have to be complicated.

 Only issue may arise is if your project is 48Khz and the CD is 44.1 and certain setting are involved that this might cause a loud pop in your speakers as the sample rate changes. 

[Lynn Wilson]

32 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Only issue may arise is if your project is 48Khz and the CD is 44.1 and certain setting are involved that this might cause a loud pop in your speakers as the sample rate changes. 

Yes, and a good reason to do this within CW.  I suppose that it depends on one's converter and/or driver, as it's not an issue with mine.

[greg54]

For me, having the reference track in CbB is probably the easiest.   Right now all the info is kind of overloading my brain.  I'm watching videos and trying to understand, but it's all new to me.   I think I'll just take my time and watch and read and sift through it all.  But I appreciate all the help everyone is giving.  

One question I have:  I've been watching videos of mixing, and a lot of people say to mix Left Center Right, with nothing in between.  Is that how everyone here mixes?

[Bristol_Jonesey]

1 hour ago, greg54 said:

For me, having the reference track in CbB is probably the easiest.   Right now all the info is kind of overloading my brain.  I'm watching videos and trying to understand, but it's all new to me.   I think I'll just take my time and watch and read and sift through it all.  But I appreciate all the help everyone is giving.  

One question I have:  I've been watching videos of mixing, and a lot of people say to mix Left Center Right, with nothing in between.  Is that how everyone here mixes?

I don't. But a good way to approach a fresh mix is to first pan EVERYTHING to the centre. Get your mix working in mono first with EQ, compression, levels before panning everything.

Then when you do pan it you'll have a lovely, open & airy mix free of any phasing issues

[greg54]

Good to know.  Thanks!

[OutrageProductions]

1 hour ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

 But a good way to approach a fresh mix is to first pan EVERYTHING to the centre. Get your mix working in mono first...

Much easier way is to put the Master (mix) bus into mono instead of stereo interleave. 

[bitflipper]

8 hours ago, greg54 said:

One question I have:  I've been watching videos of mixing, and a lot of people say to mix Left Center Right, with nothing in between.  Is that how everyone here mixes?

Not me. 

However, there is some validity to the concept of LRC panning. The main message is you shouldn't be afraid to be aggressive in your panorama. A 10% adjustment may sound great while you're mixing, especially if you're using headphones. But out in the car or on your living room hi-fi it's going to be too subtle to hear. Instead of a nice wide mix it's semi-mono mush.

I prefer a modified LRC approach, which is to place almost everything into one of 5 positions: L100, L50, C, R50 and R100.

Footnote: people recommending LRC are assuming all your tracks are mono. While mono tracks are easier to mix and make for wider-sounding mixes, in practice you're probably going to have to work in some stereo tracks as well. That can be especially challenging if you're creating music entirely from synths and samplers, which all too often insist on being stereo, dammit!. A mix made from all stereo tracks can counter-intuitively sound more like wide mono if you don't handle panning properly. Fortunately, Cakewalk comes with a tool for panning stereo properly called Channel Tools. Even better, grab the panner from Boz Digital Labs.

[greg54]

9 hours ago, bitflipper said:

However, there is some validity to the concept of LRC panning. The main message is you shouldn't be afraid to be aggressive in your panorama. A 10% adjustment may sound great while you're mixing, especially if you're using headphones. But out in the car or on your living room hi-fi it's going to be too subtle to hear. Instead of a nice wide mix it's semi-mono mush.

I prefer a modified LRC approach, which is to place almost everything into one of 5 positions: L100, L50, C, R50 and R100.

Footnote: people recommending LRC are assuming all your tracks are mono. While mono tracks are easier to mix and make for wider-sounding mixes, in practice you're probably going to have to work in some stereo tracks as well. That can be especially challenging if you're creating music entirely from synths and samplers, which all too often insist on being stereo, dammit!. A mix made from all stereo tracks can counter-intuitively sound more like wide mono if you don't handle panning properly. Fortunately, Cakewalk comes with a tool for panning stereo properly called Channel Tools. Even better, grab the panner from Boz Digital Labs

I think it was Mike Enjo who suggested converting a lot of stereo tracks into mono, which I have done.  I approach horn, piano and other such instruments played on the keyboard as if the real thing was recorded, so I make them mono.

But I've kept the pads stereo.   Making instruments mono and then panning 100% L or R adds to the width, to me.   But I too am beginning to see that LCR, for me, may not be the best way.   I put some instruments that are meant to stick out a bit more around 50-60% here and there.   These instruments are not playing all the time.  When they do play, and I want them to stick out more, I do what you suggested bitflipper, and bring them out of LR just a little.  But everything else, except for vocals, bass, kick, are LCR.  That seems to be working for me.

I will check out the Boz Digital Labs panner.  

Thanks, everyone!

[whoisp]

Not sure how engineers did things without reference tracks, oh they used their ears and meters. People tend to make things way to difficult.

Mastering - Reference track
Bounce your mix "mixdown" aka your pre master 24bit 48khz wav is commonly use. This should have no errors to fix in mastering, realistically is should sound how you want it from putting it through a mix bus. Mastering is just polish and loudness. 

Open your mastering session, and import your pre master "mixdown". Add another track for your Reference track which should be of the same(ish) style "professionally mastered" so your in the rough ball park for 'Loudness Units Full Scale' (lufs)  for Film score or CD or Digital distribution etc. I personally would test any Reference track as it could be two loud or two quite!!!!!! 

Therefore, a target loudness of -12 to -9 LUFS would bring you up to traditional CD levels but Spotify is -14 and YouTube say aim for -13 to -15 LUFS . Me personally i never "peak" over -10 so the average maybe -12 to -14 depending on dynamics and style. You will never go wrong with that information. 

Stereo & Mono

Low end Sub and bass is better on mono for majority of tracks, HOWEVER some tracks need a certain creative edge with space down the middle so you might have bass stereo to create the space, aka Massive Attack - Angel rings some bells and plenty more. 

WHENEVER you RECORD something with natural spatial qualities that you want to reproduce in your mix it should be stereo, stereo recording works well on acoustic guitar, Orchestic,  and even drums. Well in fact, freeze your midi and see what happens STEREO. 

Pros, tend to RECORD bass guitar, guitars  and vocals on mono but "samples" with vocals will be on stereo due to added  spatial qualities. However pros may duplicate the MONO guitar track and stick one 100% left and one 100% right for width and eq them slightly different for that spatial dynamic 

 AKA there are no rules its about what sounds good and the same with panning. If your mix sounds good to your ears in headphones and speakers they you panning is OK but you might play with panning to create space the same as eq. 

You will hear many wives tails and the pretentious muso talk, its best to keep it simple about forming a UNDERSTANDING so you KNOW what your doing so yuou can evolve and not go round in circles

P