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Craig Anderton

Who's Using ReWire with CbB?

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Thanks for the response Craig. In concept it makes sense (the article reference in the OP); but for the price tag, I get concerned for a couple of reasons (pun intended), especially to new users:

  1. There are a lot of free (or cheap) VSTis out there; and while many users start with tweaking presets, there are also a lot of "sonic manipulation" tools (in the same price range) that can morph things into uncharted territory. For $400, someone with patience could rack up quite an arsenal of instruments and tools for use with CbB (or any DAW).
  2. In a similar vein, while the point is to take advantage of tools which do not have recording capability, that same $400 could buy a DAW which most certainly can and also includes adequate VSTis already. That would undermine the point of the article.

New users are the my primary concern, since they really want 1) easy setup, 2) intuitive workflow, 3) not to have to invest large amounts just to get up and running. *IF* someone had those tools on hand, ReWire would make sense, but I am always hesitant to suggest a solution with a large price tag to folks needing help.

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On 8/1/2019 at 9:41 AM, mettelus said:

For $400, someone with patience could rack up quite an arsenal of instruments and tools for use with CbB (or any DAW)...

In a similar vein, while the point is to take advantage of tools which do not have recording capability, that same $400 could buy a DAW which most certainly can and also includes adequate VSTis already. That would undermine the point of the article.

Regarding the first point, someone might not have the patience to research what's available, download trial versions, and install multiple pieces of software. But also note that a program like Reason is about more than instruments. For example, there's still no way in CbB to build up a drum machine pattern using MIDI recording and overdubbing. Reason can do that with Redrum, and you can either export the audio and bring it into CbB as a loop, run Redrum as a VI within CbB, or send the MIDI sequence into CbB and use it to trigger a different VI. So I see using a program like Reason as serving simply as a suite of virtual instrument plug-ins, but if you get into it more, you can take advantage of sequencing features unique to Reason. And there are other features, like the Combinator (allows creating sounds that would be time-consuming to put together with conventional plug-ins).

As to the second point, I'm not really sure $400 will buy a DAW with the same kind of instrument roster (and content) as Reason, or at least, none come to mind. But again, the context is someone downloads CbB for free, loves it, but wants more instruments and effects for same. Switching to a different DAW with more instruments wouldn't be the answer if they love CbB. Also note that the latest version of Reason not only includes the Europa synthesizer, which by itself is pretty fantastic, but also includes a VST version of Europa that you can use independently of Reason.

I'm sure adding Reason via ReWire wouldn't be the best solution for everyone, but I do think it would be the ideal solution for some people. I find it really convenient to save a Reason document as a complete backline, and then be able to bring it into a DAW with a couple clicks (compared to loading a bunch of VSTis). Different strokes for different folks and all that, but I do think people should be aware of the possibilities, because it might be exactly what they need.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

For example, there's still no way in CbB to build up a drum machine pattern using MIDI recording and overdubbing.

 I'm curious as to what's preventing you from doing this?  Cakewalk is a Drum machine on Steroids! 😃

 

We do have sound on sound recording of midi and Looping for not having to stop, as well as rewind on stop.

Edited by Blogospherianman

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I should have specified the MIDI piano roll view. The problem is  you can't hear what was previously recorded when dealing with the piano roll view. You can use the step sequencer, but that's a different animal compared to the piano roll view.  Sometimes I still miss Master Tracks Pro... :)

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I've been rewire-ing Sibelius with CbB a lot lately.  Just to double check scores that I create in Sibelius from the compositions I create and and eventually mix in CbB.  I just look at Sibelius, I do not use the audio from it.

Two frustrating things for me...if I fine and error I have to fix the problem twice.  The other is I like to start my CbB file in measure 3 and Sibelius needs to start in measure 1 or a pick-up.  So the "Now Time" is always in different places in the programs.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

The problem is  you can't hear what was previously recorded when dealing with the piano roll view.

Hey Craig, I think you must be thinking of loop-recording audio...?  Sound on Sound recording works great for loop-recording MIDI drum parts. Personally I usually restart the tranport in between takes, but you don't have to.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

I should have specified the MIDI piano roll view. The problem is  you can't hear what was previously recorded when dealing with the piano roll view. You can use the step sequencer, but that's a different animal compared to the piano roll view.  Sometimes I still miss Master Tracks Pro... :)

It works in piano roll view for me. 🤔

Sounds to me like the classic case of arming the midi take lane instead of the parent track.  With Sound on sound recording of midi, if you arm the Parent track of the Midi track you Can  hear what you’ve previously recorded and add more and it will add new track lanes each time (which you can also hear).  

It works with loop recording as well . When loop recording you’ll hear them but won’t see them until you hit stop.

With a higher midi buffer shorter Loops of say 2bars the recorded midi might not play the 1 loop around (midi buffer dependent... say on 2500 midi buffer) It’s not a problem on say a Midi Buffer of 250.  I usually hit spacebar then R and add more. Plays each previous part while recording

Edited by Blogospherianman

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

...there's still no way in CbB to build up a drum machine pattern using MIDI recording and overdubbing.

I've been trying to do this for the past couple of weeks. I wouldn't say there's no way, but so far I haven't found a good way. I insert Addictive Drums, arm the MIDI track, record kick drum for, let's say, eight bars, RTZ, record snare or hat or something (in sound on sound mode). My goal is to create a 2- or 4-bar pattern and save it as an Acid loop. But, maybe due to my ineptitude at thinking like a drummer (I am not one), so far no love.

On edit: But to your original post, @Craig Anderton, I think you might be on the wrong track suggesting Reason as an accessory to CbB (objections appearing elsewhere in this thread), but an article that simply describes how to rewire anything to CbB, with some examples of useful techniques would be interesting to me.

Edited by Larry Jones

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7 hours ago, Blogospherianman said:

It works with loop recording as well . When loop recording you’ll hear them but won’t see them until you hit stop.

So how do you edit it  while recording? I'll play with it some more, perhaps my  opinions are based on when I tried to do this with older versions, but couldn't.

 

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8 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

So how do you edit it  while recording? I'll play with it some more, perhaps my  opinions are based on when I tried to do this with older versions, but couldn't.

 

Assuming you don’t literally mean editing while actually playing, simply hit the spacebar to stop and adjust your notes in the Piano roll view. Then hit R to start recording again.  Your passes will be separate midi  clips in the lanes which you can keep that way to have elements separate or bounce them to a single clip if you like it altogether.  And now that they fixed the nudge in the PRV you can lay that snare back with nudge without fear of changing lanes! 😉

This method of Drum pattern like recording has worked with every Sonar as far back as I can remember. 🤔

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9 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

So how do you edit it  while recording?

Ah,  "edit while recording"...  that's a different animal. Yes, not possible in PRV currently.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, David Baay said:

Ah,  "edit while recording"...  that's a different animal. Yes, not possible in PRV currently.

I’m really good at multitasking but at what point are you trying to play notes and simultaneously edit them?  Other than input quantize...  You wouldn’t edit snare drum from the 1st two bars while you were still recording the 3rd and 4th bars would you? 🤔

(There is Live editing happening in your brain while playing. 😄)

Just like audio, you must hit the spacebar and stop to start editing.  Just cause you have to hit stop, doesn’t mean you have to stop the flow.

If you must maintain your groove while editing, It’s easy to time your spacebar - spacebar or spacebar - R to keep your loop going in time while letting the clip appear in the PRV to edit while the clip is still playing. Give yourself  enough time to stop and then start right on the downbeat again (Keep the groove alive). 

I’m assuming you’re speaking of not having to spacebar (stop) to begin editing, unless there’s some other ‘Edit while recording’ process that I’m not familiar with. That’s why I LOVE this place so much though, to learn yet another way of doing something.

Cakewalk is a giant sandbox, not much you can’t do with it.

 

 

 

Edited by Blogospherianman

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Posted (edited)

I think the idea is that you start loop recording and layering MIDI parts - especially drums, but it could be horn section arrangements or something else - and as you listen to a part being replayed, you decide to delete/add/move a hit before continuing on to record other kit pieces. And you want to do this without stopping the transport so you can hear the results of your edits on the next iteration and add additional parts from your keyboard/controller at any time because you're still recording.  The PRV doesn't allow this workflow because it only shows a preview of notes being recorded, and you don't have access to edit them until you stop the transport.

Personally I would almost never choose to work this way because the autistic part of my brain gets overwhelemed with the constant noise of playback and can't think straight.  ;^)

But I understand how a lot of people would want to be able to do this,

Edited by David Baay

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Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, David Baay said:

Ah,  "edit while recording"...  that's a different animal. Yes, not possible in PRV currently.

Well guess what! I'm wrong...you can edit while recording in the PRV with sound on sound mode, just like the step sequencer. What threw me off was that if you enter or edit something, even if it's later than the current now time position, it doesn't play back until the NEXT iteration of the loop. I tend to program long drum loops to allow for variations, so with something like a 16-bar loop, I'd be entering notes or editing notes but not hear the changes. However if I waited until the loop went around again, they would indeed play back while recording, and I could edit them. 

So the PRV still isn't as immediate as the step sequencer or conventional drum machine-type pattern creation, but it does work if you're willing to wait for the loop to repeat so you can hear what you did. I don't recall this as being the behavior in the past - perhaps it was changed in an update?

Also bear in mind that sound on sound mode doesn't persist from project to project, it always seems to default to comping mode.

Edited by Craig Anderton

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