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Bruno de Souza Lino

AudioSnap doesn't play well with long audio.

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Hi.

I've been trying to create a tempo map for a song by using AudioSnap to mark the transients. It's been working fine until I got  almost 3 minutes into doing it. Now AudioSnap is starting to complain about "Invalid measures and beats" and giving crap values on the average tempo as shown here:
image.png.6c9e899506beecd13ca0a3e74c9b06f6.png

I figured maybe the audio clip is too long and split it at some point. Not only that didn't fix the problem, but this happens?
image.png.9ba87423aceb125ce1fcebb50f0883ce.png

And the same error continues.

Since there's no other practical form of doing that ( tapping the tempo manually with midi then using fit to improvise would take three times longer because I can't have waveforms laid on the piano roll like you can in FL Studio), I must stop and wonder how much Audio Snap was tested for this purpose.

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Getting this error usually means it's screwed the detection up. Zoom in really close to the part where it's complaining - there's likely a double transient marker detection on a beat in there. Find it and disable it. Either that or select around that area  in general and disable all of the transient markers and manually add them back where you like.

This is definitely one of the more annoying quirks of the current detection process.

In this case where you're getting it to make a tempo map, this is a bit more complex as to how to fix it, if you're getting wildly wrong tempo info. :/

Rather than using AudioSnap for tempo detection, drag your original track up to the time ruler at the top of the window and let it detect that way. This uses Melodyne and usually gives you much more accurate results for this kind of thing.

Edited by Lord Tim

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51 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Rather than using AudioSnap for tempo detection, drag your original track up to the time ruler at the top of the window and let it detect that way. This uses Melodyne and usually gives you much more accurate results for this kind of thing.

I don't have Melodyne.

Quote

Getting this error usually means it's screwed the detection up. Zoom in really close to the part where it's complaining - there's likely a double transient marker detection on a beat in there. Find it and disable it. Either that or select around that area  in general and disable all of the transient markers and manually add them back where you like.

Disabling the transient markers doesn't detach them from the measure they're snapped to.

Edited by Bruno de Souza Lino

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You do have Melodyne - you get a trial version built into CbB that integrates into the app itself and is still functional behind the scenes.

If you drag an audio track up onto the time ruler and let it go, CbB will use Melodyne's detection engine to extract the tempo.

And yeah, as I said, tempo maps in AudioSnap are a bit more complex than just the double marker thing. I'd strongly suggest the time ruler method instead.

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I did install the trial version of Melodyne and dragged the audio I wanted mapped to the ruler. It churns out for a bit, loads Melodyne as a clip fx, churns for a bit more and...Nothing changes. The tempo is still the same as when I started.

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36 minutes ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:
1 hour ago, Lord Tim said:

Rather than using AudioSnap for tempo detection, drag your original track up to the time ruler at the top of the window and let it detect that way. This uses Melodyne and usually gives you much more accurate results for this kind of thing.

I don't have Melodyne.

CbB includes a time-limited trial version of Melodyne.

When the trial expires, the editor and polyphonic algorithms are disabled but monophonic MIDI-to-audio and tempo detection still work.

Run the Cakewalk Setup Installer or BandLab Assistant to install Melodyne.

The additional installers are on the 3rd screen of the Cakewalk Setup Installer 

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and on the "Install Add-ons..." menu in BandLab Assistant

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1 minute ago, scook said:

When the trial expires, the editor and polyphonic algorithms are disabled but monophonic MIDI-to-audio and tempo detection still work.

Didn't Celemony change that to only opening projects after Melodyne 5?

41 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

And yeah, as I said, tempo maps in AudioSnap are a bit more complex than just the double marker thing. I'd strongly suggest the time ruler method instead.

At least on the first try, Melodyne didn't even get the average tempo right and most of the beats I know should be on 1 and 3 are on 2 and 4 instead. It insists on an average of 90 when the average should be 89 (88.70 to be more precise. AudioSnap rounds it to 89).

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16 minutes ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:
23 minutes ago, scook said:

When the trial expires, the editor and polyphonic algorithms are disabled but monophonic MIDI-to-audio and tempo detection still work.

Didn't Celemony change that to only opening projects after Melodyne 5?

I was talking about the trial bundled with CbB, I have no idea about trial products directly from Celemony.

 

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I recommend using Set Measure/Beat At Now. It's faster,  more flexible and more reliable than editing the Clip Tempo Map, and yields a cleaner and more precise project tempo map than either Audionsnap  or Melodyne. (Note that the default keybinding of Tab/Shift+Tab to Next/Previous Transient (or MIDI note)  was deliberately disabled in 21.12, and has to be manually re-bound if you want use it.)

 

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20 hours ago, David Baay said:

I recommend using Set Measure/Beat At Now. It's faster,  more flexible and more reliable than editing the Clip Tempo Map, and yields a cleaner and more precise project tempo map than either Audionsnap  or Melodyne.

Does it estimate the time if I leave some beats without  setting due to lack of transients like AudioSnap does?

EDIT - It's also possible to run into the same AudioSnap error using this method.

Edited by Bruno de Souza Lino

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I just used the drag and drop tempo detection last night on a live recording. 
I want to add keyboard and  also  drum replacer and convert the bass track to Midi. I need the tempo map to get all that tightened up. 
I have 5 drum tracks and first I used the hi hat. Was a mess. But the snare track resulted in a perfect tempo map which floats around 132 bpm. 
I  highlight all and drag the whole project so the kick was on the grid. Looking along the time line it stays almost exactly correct. 
I used drum replacer on the kick and snare tracks and drag to AD drums.
I then Quantize to 1/16th and already things are sounding way better than the original. Today I’ll convert the bass and add the keyboard parts.  
Anyway this is one of many times I’ve successfully used the drag and drop tempo detection with out issue . Not only drums but I’ve also had success with acoustic guitars   

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Does it estimate the time if I leave some beats without  setting due to lack of transients like AudioSnap does?

EDIT - It's also possible to run into the same AudioSnap error using this method.

You can set as many or as few points as needed. Each tempo change will persist until the next one. If a section is locked in for several measures with a fixed tempo, there is no need to have  superfluous tempo changes. This is what I prefer about SM/BAN vs. Melodyne that will interpolate tempo changes every 8th note even where there are no notes or Audiosnap/Fit Improv that  want exactly one tempo change at every beat, and nothing in between. Also Audiosnap has a long-standing regression bug where it doesn't place the tempo changes exactly on the grid, which is messy and complicates copy/cut/paste operations.

If you get an "invalid" error with SM/BAN, the error is yours; you've tried to set a beat that is already set or would require a tempo outside the range of 8-1000 bpm to align with the current Now time. If you find this is due to a previous 'Set' being wrong, use Undo to get back to the last 'good' state, especially if there is MIDI in the project. Deleting tempo changes directly will foul things up.

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6 minutes ago, David Baay said:

You can set as many or as few points as needed. Each tempo change will persist until the next one. If a section is locked in for several measures with a fixed tempo, there is no need to have  superfluous tempo changes. This is what I prefer about SM/BAN vs. Melodyne that will interpolate tempo changes every 8th note even where there are no notes or Audiosnap/Fit Improv that  want exactly one tempo change at every beat, and nothing in between. Also Audiosnap has a long-standing regression bug where it doesn't place the tempo changes exactly on the grid, which is messy and complicates copy/cut/paste operations.

There wasn't a single instance where Melodyne got the tempo right when I tried.

7 minutes ago, David Baay said:

If you get an "invalid" error with SM/BAN, the error is yours; you've tried to set a beat that is already set or would require a tempo outside the range of 8-1000 bpm to align with the current Now time

Problem here is there's no way to know which is which, which makes the error message confusing at best. When I had issues with AudioSnap and your suggested method, I couldn't find what the error was and had to delete everything and start over. IMO those two should be more resilient than that. And of course, that was also when it didn't crash CbB altogether.

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As I said, Undo is your friend when this happens. To understand the problem, just show the tempo track; if there's a node at or very near the beat you're trying to set, that's the problem. With more experience, you 'll encounter this error less frequently. Tab to transient is still going to be subject to transient detection errors, so you might need to double-check that the Now time is in the correct place. I usually do this by playing a measure at time, and stopping just before or after the beat I want to set, and then tabbing forward or back to it. If  Tab doesn't put it right on the start of the transient, I'll click with snap disabled to set the Now time more precisely. Start by setting a downbeat every 4-8 measures, and then make additional intermediate sets as necessary to tighten it up further. Getting that initial 'rough' set done will help Cakewalk 'guess' more accurately which beat you're setting, and help avoid the 'Invalid" error.

And, finally, do a Save As with a filename suffix like "My Project - Set Thru 32"  every once in a while so that you can easily back up to some intermediate point without completely starting over.

 

 

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On 2/1/2022 at 4:03 PM, David Baay said:

As I said, Undo is your friend when this happens

In some cases, the error happens not when the mistake is made, but several steps after it, so there's no way to pinpoint it. Couple that with the fact that you can't remove snapping once it's set and your only option is starting over.

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You can execute Undo (Ctrl+Z) as many times as necessary to get back to the point before the mistake was made (until you save and close the project which is why I recommend Save As periodically) . But it's also possible that no mistake was made earlier, and you are trying to set the wrong measure/beat, or trying to set it to the wrong Now time. This should be clear from checking the location of existing nodes in the tempo track as you listen to the playback with the metronome on.

If you want to share a copy of that audio somewhere, I can 'Set' it for you and summarize the process.

Hopefully we're not dealing with Mahler's Symphony No. 3.  ;^)

 

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6 minutes ago, David Baay said:

If you want to share a copy of that audio somewhere, I can 'Set' it for you and summarize the process.

While I do think both methods have too many loose ends and burden on the user, I managed to do the AudioSnap method after starting over three times. As much as that is prone to error, it has less steps than the set beat at now time method.

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In my experience, it takes at least as much more work to get all the the beat markers correctly aligned in the clip map as to Set beats as needed, mainly because editing clip maps is so mouse-intensive where SM/BAN is all keyboard-driven, using Spacebar to start and stop playback, and hitting Tab, S, Enter where necessary to set beats (I have S bound in place of Shift+M because I use it so much). In addition to being crash-prone, and placing tempo changes off the grid, edited clip maps aren't saved/restored as they should be, so you have to get the whole job done in one session.

 

 

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On 1/29/2022 at 5:07 PM, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Hi.

I've been trying to create a tempo map for a song by using AudioSnap to mark the transients. It's been working fine until I got  almost 3 minutes into doing it. Now AudioSnap is starting to complain about "Invalid measures and beats" and giving crap values on the average tempo as shown here:
image.png.6c9e899506beecd13ca0a3e74c9b06f6.png

I figured maybe the audio clip is too long and split it at some point. Not only that didn't fix the problem, but this happens?
image.png.9ba87423aceb125ce1fcebb50f0883ce.png

And the same error continues.

Since there's no other practical form of doing that ( tapping the tempo manually with midi then using fit to improvise would take three times longer because I can't have waveforms laid on the piano roll like you can in FL Studio), I must stop and wonder how much Audio Snap was tested for this purpose.

I got audiosnap to work by bouncing the clip, then I resaved the Project file, open it again, THEN used the AudioSnap "Sync Project Tempo to an Audio Clip" at which point, it updated the global project Tempo to the clip's Click Track's tempo, and it aligned/synced the measures.  I also read up on bouncing clips so I  understand that the bounce process can fix all kinds of quirky things. I was still hoping bouncing the clip would also make it work when I drag/drop the clip onto the tempo map, but that still doesn't work.   

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