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Larry Shelby

Intel's 12th-generation Core i9 Processor ​ ​Faster Than Apple Silicon M1 Max

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14 minutes ago, Nick Blanc said:

I will dive into my power settings some more this weekend. I followed all the usual steps which are reconmended (found it on the Sweetwater website). Ableton support sent me a link to follow, so I will do that as well. And I will doublecheck throttling. Running 100% doesn't really matter for me, I have the PC switched off when I'm not making music, so I'm not driving up my utilities bill.

See, your "150 track with 100 plugins" was what I was expecting with my setup, but I don't even have near half that. With a PC that was more expensive than my car (granted, it's a crappy one). But I'm not going anywhere near the registry.

If you run an Intel chip - check the BIOS too. There's sometimes a bunch of oddly named stuff that messed with the CPU speed / timing. At least on OEM machines, Intel has stuff like Speed-step and C-states that will cause all kinds of latency problems when it's cycling through power states. Probably not as much an issue on custom built machines, but there are still a lot of BIOS options that mess with power states. And basically, anytime the computer is shuffling through these (on network card / wifi, CPU, GPU, memory, drives) it will likely trip up real time performance. Apple are incredibly good at dealing with this. Their machines run like a calm river. Windows is more like a bouncy castle.

And ya - when I first got this laptop I could barely run 5 tracks without it throwing a fit. Was about to return it when I stumbled on the power tweaks.

Edited by Carl Ewing

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6 minutes ago, MusicMan said:

Latency Mon is pretty easy so you'll be fine. I normally leave it run for about half an hour and then look at what is causing the most interrupts/latency.

It's often a driver.

Did you change OS, DAW version, Sample Rates, buffer sizes or anything at the same time as the upgrade?

Do you have a USB wireless card? Have you tried unplugging any peripherals that aren't essential to test?

I suspect you're already aware of these by the sound, but doesn't hurt to check 🙂

I've used Latencymon once when I had issues with my Focusrite interface cutting out. Was baffled by this sudden problem for weeks. So support (which was very helpful and quick to respond) helped my through all the steps. I was at the end of my options until, unrelated, I was shuffling some USB connections. I noticed I put the USB plug from the Focusrite into an USB hub. Probably needed a port for something else and didn't bother to check what USB cable I was moving. 

So there's my IT skill level for ya 🤪 I excused myself for being an idiot and thanked them for all their patience.

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13 minutes ago, MusicMan said:

Latency Mon is pretty easy so you'll be fine. I normally leave it run for about half an hour and then look at what is causing the most interrupts/latency.

It's often a driver.

Did you change OS, DAW version, Sample Rates, buffer sizes or anything at the same time as the upgrade?

Do you have a USB wireless card? Have you tried unplugging any peripherals that aren't essential to test?

I suspect you're already aware of these by the sound, but doesn't hurt to check 🙂

Yeah I basically changed everything on my new PC. Went from Windows 10 to 11. Installed the latest Ableton version (so that didn't change), changed the sample rate from 44.1 to 48, changed the buffer size from...ehm 256 or 512? to 128. I did disable wifi and bluetooth yes. I'm not unplugging the peripherals (external SSD and synths) because those will be connected in daily use.

I'm setting myself up for a test weekend. Running all kinds of similar projects between my old and new PC. Checking every setting. Not the greatest of weekends, but hey, at least I have some female companionship coming over looking pretty while I'm cursing at machines.

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2 hours ago, Carl Ewing said:

Software developers got spoiled by the ever increasing speed, efficiency and lowered cost of CPUs / hardware. Why bother writing efficient software when the consumer can just keep updating their specs?

With regard to performance, application developers tend to aim for the low-hanging fruit; if it runs, it's good enough. User feedback likely confirms it is good enough, and by good enough I only mean it doesn't generate waves of negative feedback (it may still be a garbage fire of sloppily coded bloat, but statistically it appears to be doing its thing). This approach was easier to justify in single-task/single-purpose systems.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth's_law

Quote

Wirth attributed the saying to Martin Reiser, who in the preface to his book on the Oberon System wrote: "The hope is that the progress in hardware will cure all software ills. However, a critical observer may observe that software manages to outgrow hardware in size and sluggishness." 

Other observers had noted this for some time before; indeed, the trend was becoming obvious as early as 1987.

 

 

 

Timestamped to the relevant part towards the end, but the whole rant is hilarious.

 

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49 minutes ago, Nick Blanc said:

Focusrite interface

There could be your problem. Reportedly Focusrite write bad drivers.

In any case, I'd check the USB hub topology in the device manager and connect the audio interface to a dedicated hub (no other devices connected to it). Try different cables and ports.

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16 minutes ago, sarine said:

There could be your problem. Reportedly Focusrite write bad drivers.

In any case, I'd check the USB hub topology in the device manager and connect the audio interface to a dedicated hub (no other devices connected to it). Try different cables and ports.

Well, I don't really see a solution to the driver problem. Apart from buying a new interface, which is not going to happen. And weird that I did'nt have those issues with my old PC. And I already connected the interface to a dedicated USB connection on the motherboard. First thing I did.

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5 minutes ago, Nick Blanc said:

Well, I don't really see a solution to the driver problem. Apart from buying a new interface, which is not going to happen. And weird that I did'nt have those issues with my old PC. And I already connected the interface to a dedicated USB connection on the motherboard. First thing I did.

It is weird, but the driver could still be the culprit.

Did you see that there are no other devices connected to the same hub?

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1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

Can this thread be moved from the Deals section please?

I don't think you get what is this section for 😎

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Heat , noise is a question of integrationn , some brands know how to do it , some don t , 

Some brands focus on reliability because their clients are sensible sectors (health ,security , ect ) so they do system with extra low temp no matter the loads ... and some brands lets you managed it , i uselly tune my system and they re dead quite zero fan on idle while just a litlle noise when on load , i know how to force the daws to use intel gpu instead of dedicated one  (optimus is great , but just to be sure)  .... a solid windows pc is untouchable in my non humble opinion on this one , been a mac user , testing macs or regualr basis , to date , two macbook were solid , the 17 ´ with expresscard and this m1  , my 17 died because of the gpu long time issue ... repaired it once , gave up since ...  

Apple move with the m1 is strategic ... the incapacity of doing tight integration was their issue , proven bybthe fact that sole brands managed to get constatnly quieter systems than macs and cooler with same to even finer systems ...

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25 minutes ago, Last Call said:

I don't think you get what is this section for 😎

Err...Deals? 🤨

This is a thread about hardware, and, if I'm not mistaken, there is a section dedicated to hardware on the board which would suit it more.

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I feel the force is weakening in the Intel camp. 

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All that tweaking and optimizing, just to get a windows machine to work right…I used to think it was fun when I started on computers 20 plus years ago.  But then I got bored with. DPC, bad drivers, bios tweaking…all of that nonsense.  now I consider that an annoyance and waste of time. I want to fire up my daw and get to making music. Not be my own IT guy. 

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32 minutes ago, Fleer said:

I feel the force is weakening in the Intel camp. 

Intel is the dark side. 🤣

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I recall someone on these forums saying that the 12900k was faster than the M1.

He had actually benckmarked both... comparing side-by-side.

Don't know who that might have been... 😁

 

The 12900k is an amazing CPU.

Yes, you need robust cooling.

Heat is nowhere near Threadripper.  IOW, It's possible to build a quiet machine.

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17 minutes ago, Hugh Mann said:

 now I consider that an annoyance and waste of time. I want to fire up my daw and get to making music. Not be my own IT guy. 

A bit over-blown.

Win10 needs properly configured once.

For someone who knows what they're doing, that process isn't lengthy (probably about 15 minutes).

We have Apple machines here to support VE Pro clients.  I tweak OSX as well (disable power-management, etc).

 

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23 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

I recall someone on these forums saying that the 12900k was faster than the M1.

May not be what you are referring to but this COMPARISON link was shared in THIS thread.

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45 minutes ago, Hugh Mann said:

All that tweaking and optimizing, just to get a windows machine to work right…I used to think it was fun when I started on computers 20 plus years ago.  But then I got bored with. DPC, bad drivers, bios tweaking…all of that nonsense.  now I consider that an annoyance and waste of time. I want to fire up my daw and get to making music. Not be my own IT guy. 

Tweaking is optional , of course if you go for a best buy 500 buck comp don t expect anything from it , my tweaking on my xps was only to put my cpu in passive mode on balanced mode (when i browse or watch movies)  and gpu thing isn t necessay unless you like me a 4 k display witch asks for gpu power if not carefulll , unde4 than those 3 min past on it ´ the rest is all fun ´ two ssd , a touch screen , top notch perfs and support on site that i used once for my keyboard accidental tea damage lol ... 4 usb ports , sd card , hdmi and display on a 1.8 kg laptop  that i bougth 1500 euros after selling a brand new mbp 13 given by school ...(sold it 1200 euros) ... what a darkside ... it s just another way of thinking , simple as that ... either choices are just choice , some don t need upgrability , a lot of ports , second ssd slot or touch screens (so fun with drum machine and step sequencing as well as editing , melodyne mainly) 

there s no camp for me , i simply go for the best my money can buy and tech can offer with my needs at least met , but most of the time with them being anticipated ... and this led me with zero mac purchase the last 4 upgrades ...

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17 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

A bit over-blown.

Win10 needs properly configured once.

For someone who knows what they're doing, that process isn't lengthy (probably about 15 minutes).

We have Apple machines here to support VE Pro clients.  I tweak OSX as well (disable power-management, etc).

 

A bit overblown? There is a good example posted in this thread already. How much time has he wasted? And he’s still not done.  I wasted time just reading about his issues, lol. I’ll give another example. I have a dell laptop. Latest updates. I wanted to use it with my e drums. I wanted the lowest latency. I have a focusrite scarlet gen2. Kept getting crackles. So I go to disable all the services I can. Still crackles. So I disable whatever is not in use in device manager. Still crackles. So I go to the bios. After all that, the lowest latency I could get without crackles was 5 ms. Not bad but I wasted so much time and was so aggravated by the annoyance.  And now the fan is on all the time ( noise). It’s hot,  and battery lasts 30 min, if I’m lucky.  
 

Plug in my M1 air( before i returned it) . Bingo. None of that crap.  Latency down to 2ms.  can go for 10 plus hours on battery.  Beautiful screen. Silent. Barely warm.    just sleek all around  

to get the same with windows I’d have to acquire the knowledge over time, a or do a lot of research and posting. Or buy from someone like you. And it would not be the sleek package that Apple is. It would be a generic pc So if  I bought from you, I’d have to go to you for support. And your machines are expensive. Not saving anything there. Also, your computers, like all windows computers will have poor  resale value.   Where as Apple will buy your older Mac . Apple gave me 1200$ for my 2018 MacBook pro. They also gave me $570 for my M1 mini. I used that to upgrade to a new machine.  I could have gotten more selling it myself. Try that with a pc. Even the ones you sell.  
 

but in the end. it’s just a tool.  use whatever you want. But there is no denying Apple makes great tools. I’d rather just get to making music.  Price matters, but I’d rather pay a premium if it gets me a premium product. 

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12 hours ago, Hugh Mann said:

But that didn’t happen.  I could use pretty much all of my software, via Rosetta , right off the bat. And the few that didn’t work, got Rosetta updates like in a month. Out of all my software, d16 lush 101 is the only one that didn’t work. And they said they will charge for an M1 version. But the rest all worked. I’ve got too much software to list, like many of u I’m sure. But they worked. Now there is a  very small performance penalty when using Rosetta. So Mac user were waiting for M1 native versions.  But I don’t notice any difference between Rosetta and M 1 native. actually it’s  a very impressive technical accomplishment.  

I can add  g-force's oddity 2 and minimonsta (imposcar 2 does work) along with D16's sigmund to that.

I do see enough difference using m1 native plugins in the m1 native ableton 11 beta to make it worthwhile, especially resource hungry stuff like DIVA - but rosetta 2 is extremely impressive.

The automatic rosetta wrapper used for audio unit plugins inside the m1 native ableton version works well too - even allowing me to run p900 modular from nothing but a straight copy over of the plugin! - but AUs don't allow midi out from midi effect plugins that run as instruments, so I find myself using both versions of ableton, depending on the plugins I want to use.

Overall I have been very happy with my 16gb mac mini m1 - I expected far more issues than I've actually had with it.  It just sits there silently running (almost) everything I throw at it.

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