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kitekrazy

The delusional world of Linux.

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OK, since we're comparing the lengths of our, um, service...abacab, I was the guy your school would have called in to repair said paper tape machine, card reader or teletype console.

I have little nostalgia for that time, though, given that I often was covered in grease and ink by the end of the day - despite having to wear a suit and tie to work. 

But I spent my free time learning software, became a software support analyst and saved a fortune in dry-cleaning bills. I became the guy your COBOL instructor would call to complain that the compiler didn't implement register optimization the way he expected it to.

By the late 80's that had led to a career in programming, software and database design. Now I can wear the jeans 'n t-shirt uniform that I always wanted, and most days don't get dirty except when telling jokes.

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vi - meh

Epsilon** - supported in both *nix and win* YAY!

I still use Epsilon to this day in the right circumstance.

 

** found it in 1987ish

Edited by Bapu

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I was a power user of DEC's EDT editor.  Once I found I could get a copy of it for the PC, I never used another editor until smart IDE's came out.

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13 minutes ago, Bapu said:

IDE's of March?

 

11 minutes ago, craigb said:

That was soooo last month!

Poor Caesar!!!!!   More like so 44BC 😀

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Posted (edited)
On 3/30/2019 at 8:59 PM, abacab said:

An interesting trend that I have noticed this year is the number of folks still running Windows 7, and flatly refusing to ever upgrade to Windows 10. They realize that Win7 support expires next year, so they are beginning to test various Linux distros as dual boot configs alongside their current Windows installations, to see if they are comfortable with using that as their main OS after Win7 end of life. Many of those same folks are also not interested in running straight towards the Apple camp.  ;)

 

Bit of an old thread, and this is my first post here, but I made this first post specifically to say that I'm one of these users. I don't refuse to upgrade to Windows 10 on principle (I have a work and a personal laptop that are both windows 10), but my old desktop, the one with the firewire card that I need to use my Edirol FA-101, just doesn't seem beefy enough to justify trying to get windows 10 to work on it. So I set it up to dual boot with Linux Mint earlier this year, and just yesterday I set up yet another partition and put AV Linux on there, to see if I can get away with removing Windows 7 completely and just use that (I don't really see the point in keeping it now, due to the aforementioned windows 10 laptops, and the fact that I'm only really hanging onto Windows 7 because I've already got it to accept the FA-101)

Amazingly, on AV Linux, Ardour recognised the FA-101 instantly and without any setup at all (I remember having immense difficulty getting it initially working properly on Windows despite the fact that Windows is what the drivers are made for). I've yet to do any proper recording in it yet but I'll see how this goes (it's worth pointing out at this point that I've not recorded anything for the last 3-4 years or so anyway, so I'm under no illusion that experimenting with another OS is a viable option for anyone really serious about recording. The stakes just happen to be particularly low for me, so it was worth a try). In fairness, AV Linux wasn't a complete shot in the dark on my part, I'd googled something like "Linux DAW FA-101" and in those results I came across a post where someone mentioned that AV Linux supported the FA-101 natively, I just wanted to try it as it seemed too good to be true.


While I'm not an expert programmer my day job does involve a fair bit of dabbling in coding, so while I've had a few issues on Linux so far (such as the fact that Linux Mint 19.3 seemed determined to put my wireless card in power saver mode, i.e. turned off and unable to connect to wi-fi) I've been able to fix them and have considered it almost therapeutic whereas a lot of my non-tech literate friends would have had a completely different experience.

 

 

Oh, it's also worth pointing out that the windows 7 install on my desktop is buggy as hell. If ever I try to install something, I have a roughly 50/50 chance of the installation actually succeeding (e.g. I recently tried to install ESET internet security, and it just ain't happening). So while it might sound simpler just stick with Win 7, that wasn't really working for me - and I'd tried repairing it. The options I was down to were either to completely reinstall Windows, or give Linux a go 😛

Edited by Dan L

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I still boot to Linux sometimes.

I have usb ssds with Ubuntu studio that enable me to use any handy laptop or desktop to make a recording with my rme.

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm an old coot. when I was 19 I worked on the testing floor among PDP-11s and vt-100 terminals.

There was SCO unix running on one box and it seemed necessary then for it to be verbose about all it's doings upon startup and shutdown. You know, screens of daemons and services coming to life and being killed . The file system ran out of ram so it could service all those vt-100 terminals with a measure of speed, but oh don't you loose power or you'll have lost and scrambled inodes with only an fsck to fix it. This required a fighter pilot.

OK that was 1979 ish, so it was ok.

Here I am in 2020 and linux still likes to show you it's daemons upon start and stop which just for starters will put off just about any normal person. And the when it looses juice it still corrupts it's file system and it still takes a fighter pilot to go sudo su fsck /dev/sdc0  put in the password, be admonished about inodes, know how to respond etc.

Windows doesn't like to be kicked either but it by and large can repair ntfs by itself.

I know a guy who is one of these linux guys to be a linux guy. - I agree with the Charlie Brown great punpkin analogy.

Computers and phones are like cars or ratchet wrenches. We expect to just use em without thinking or fanfare. Linux guys, well I just don't know.

It's still that "scary" unix.

Edited by bitman
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I may have finally be out-nerded which is hard to do...  

Logged onto my first "internet" session in 1975 in the basement of the Lawrence Hall of Science at Berkeley (Go Bears!)  at the tender age of 10. Ther system I was on was what became BSD Unix.  First Linux Distro was RedHat 5  almost 20 years later- but I eventually ended up specializing in data storage and spend my time talking about storage protocols and media and architecture. There currently isn't a single Linux machine in the studio at all, everything is Mac other than the DAW and a MacPro running VMWare ESX (more virtualized MAcs and Windohs machines inside) , and the controllers of the Nimble SAN which run on a Linux kernal.

An actual Linux server is located in a Colo somewhere in another part of the world. 

My $.02 - there is an ecosystem around a DAW of Interfaces, VSTs  etc.  So, it's not just a question of whether any particular DAW can be refactored to run in the linux system, but also if there is driver support for the rest of the ecosystem.  

 From a lot of experience, if you want to tinker and debug and tune an application for the satisfaction of "Making it work", then Linux is the way to go.  But if you just need things to work reliably every time then commercial software is a smarter choice than "Open Sores" software. 

And Craig - I am confident we have at least one mutual friend from your early days. 

 

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Dan, if you are really interested in doing music on Linux, I suggest you check out the Reaper Forum. There is a native Linux version of Reaper in development. Folks have it up and running, and there is a ton of helpful info on how to make it work. Some folks are even using Windows vsti's on it. Won't work for me yet, as it can't handle  my orchestral libraries, but many are finding it superior to windows. There's a drummer who used to post here a lot who is now totally doing Linux.  He goes by the name of Glenbo. Also a guy named Jack Winter, who has done a ton of work on this.

https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?s=77f9496f8a3ed4b21b4e7e303e1cf480&f=52

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Alternatively, just clean install Win 7, and then keep it offline. Spend your time making music on Windows... 😁

For online use, just get a used laptop or desktop, and re-purpose it as your internet computer with your chosen flavor of Linux.

Or if not a geek, just use a ChromeBook for your online needs... Plug and Play!

I say this as someone who has been running computers since the 70's, and Linux on and off since Red Hat 9 (2003).

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7 hours ago, Gswitz said:

I still boot to Linux sometimes.

I have usb ssds with Ubuntu studio that enable me to use any handy laptop or desktop to make a recording with my rme.

 

I gave Linux the boot years ago. 

 

2 hours ago, StudioNSFW said:

I may have finally be out-nerded which is hard to do...  

Logged onto my first "internet" session in 1975 in the basement of the Lawrence Hall of Science at Berkeley (Go Bears!)  at the tender age of 10. Ther system I was on was what became BSD Unix.  First Linux Distro was RedHat 5  almost 20 years later- but I eventually ended up specializing in data storage and spend my time talking about storage protocols and media and architecture. There currently isn't a single Linux machine in the studio at all, everything is Mac other than the DAW and a MacPro running VMWare ESX (more virtualized MAcs and Windohs machines inside) , and the controllers of the Nimble SAN which run on a Linux kernal.

An actual Linux server is located in a Colo somewhere in another part of the world. 

My $.02 - there is an ecosystem around a DAW of Interfaces, VSTs  etc.  So, it's not just a question of whether any particular DAW can be refactored to run in the linux system, but also if there is driver support for the rest of the ecosystem.  

 From a lot of experience, if you want to tinker and debug and tune an application for the satisfaction of "Making it work", then Linux is the way to go.  But if you just need things to work reliably every time then commercial software is a smarter choice than "Open Sores" software. 

And Craig - I am confident we have at least one mutual friend from your early days. 

 

Well said.  I don't need to feel special because I know something about Linux.  I'm not a tech person.  People who primarily use Linux don't know how to communicate to a non tech person.  Delusional at best.  There's always someone who want a Linux version of a DAW and one developer said it best that they wouldn't waste time on something most of the planet doesn't use. You hit it on the head. Linux is not great for commercial use.  As a anti Linux person I wish it eren't so.

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On 4/2/2019 at 1:14 AM, craigb said:

If you were to suddenly be able to relive your life, but with the knowledge you've gained, what would you do differently?  #1 would be to put as much money into Microsoft when it was first created that I could (and sell it all in August of 1999).

Might be easier and cheaper to just remember the jackpot-winning lottery numbers for each week

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24 minutes ago, antler said:

Might be easier and cheaper to just remember the jackpot-winning lottery numbers for each week

Agree, but either way you would achieve a guaranteed retirement plan! 🤣

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

I gave Linux the boot years ago. 

 

You hit it on the head. Linux is not great for commercial use.  As a anti Linux person I wish it eren't so.

erm...Linux *On the desktop* is generally not great for an user OS (but may be awesome for a software developer or networking ninja). Doing A DAW for it is silly for the above mentioned reasons.  BUT!! There are commercial systems running on Linux that are capable of a degree of tuning, scalability  and availability not even possible with the monolithic, closed Windows kernal.  Nimble Storage and  Qumulo are two with which I am intimately familiar.  Both are enabled because of the power and modularity of Linux  BUT neither are "Open Sores" software.   If you compile a bog standard LTS kernal, strip out everything that is not needed for what the computer is intended for you generally have a very stable and lightweight OS tuned for that task.  A very different situation than a desktop OS that is asked to have a GUI and be a web browser, word processor, media hub, pr0n player, gaming machine and DAW. 

Choice of OS just comes down to what you need *that* machine to do.  

And THAT is why I am running Win-DOHs 7 for my DAW, Mac OS for almost everything else including graphics, photography,  video production and post. IF CbB was available for Mac I probably wouldn't even have a Win-DOHs desktop machine... but then again, some of the most cutting edge editorial post houses in the world for video have slid onto Windows across the board in their workstations due to much superior SMB performance. 

Edited by StudioNSFW

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Posted (edited)

Very entertaining thread.

I'm a mid-field olde tymer, had the one college programming class back in '79 where I submitted my FORTRAN programs via deck of punched cards, built my first computer from a kit, Sinclair ZX-81 in 1981, then next one was a frankenclone XT out of castoff parts in 1990. Been participating in online forums since 1989. Was one of the founding architects of the SF  Bay Area's notorious NirvanaNet; our first meetup was at one of my bands' gigs in the lower Haight. Good times.

Been keeping an eye on Linux since I downloaded a copy in 1991 and gave it to a programmer friend at the company I worked for. Also obtained a pirated copy of "Chicago" for the same company via my sketchy BBS connections, delivered to my doorstep by what was known back in those days as a "courier." Nice feller, I met him again when we both worked at Macromedia a few years later, pre-Adobe.

I agree with the OP for the most part, although in my impression, Linux-as-moonieware is nowhere near as rabid as it once was. Perhaps I've learned to tolerate the moonieware phenomenon. It has been my impression that most Linux desktop users had just settled into using "Windblows" DAWs under Wine.

Let me dust off my Linux user trolling hat and remind them that the argument that the ongoing hilarity of trying to set a native DAW under Linux using the most common of audio interfaces is somehow the fault of the hardware manufacturers seems odd, because, hey, your pet platform is supposed to be all about this army of coders toiling away for the common good, isn't it? So why don't they just write the drivers you need for your hardware? Or is that beyond their capabilities? Why is this one area of code the one thing that the Linux world is sitting around on its collective utopian a55 waiting for commercial entities to hand them on a silver platter? Nobody can take a break from the Mr. Robot fan forum long enough to code up a driver for the Scarlett 2i2?

Having said that, I don't think that there's anything holding it back from use in any field except serious NLE creation like audio and video. I use GIMP on Windows, it finally made it to the point where it will do what I need it to, and it's a native Linux app, so I'll give Linux photo editing, and Inkscape is a powerhouse as well. So as long as the content you're creating doesn't move it's great. Video and audio editing is just too close to the hardware. We find crash bugs in Cakewalk, and it has a dedicated team of veteran programmers who work on it for a living and have done for a long time.

For productivity, with so much being done in browsers these days, and with Libre Office having matured, the underlying platform is becoming superfluous. My mom is 82 and her main system is a Chromebook she got a couple of years ago. Originally when it arrived at her place, she was going to wait for Mr. Family Tech Support Guy to come and set it up for her, but her curiosity got the best of her and the next day I spoke with her on the phone and she had it up and running and connected to her wifi router with no outside intervention. The hardest part for her was finding and typing the wifi password.

I migrated her to Google Docs from Libre Office a bit before that, so she was good to go. She runs into bit of trouble from time to time when her friends and collaborators can't deal with something that's not in Word format, so I discovered Microsoft Office Online last week, and I hope she gets up to speed on that. I know that Google Docs can export as .doc, but I figured it might be the better route.

So there you go, a desktop Linux computer passes the "old lady" test with (almost) flying colors. However. The hardware bugaboo again, when she needs to print something, she still fires up her old iMac, which sits next to her printer, even though I set up the Chromebook to print to her wireless printer. Something about the printing dialogs with the Chromebook escapes her. Next visit, after the pandemic dies down, we'll be investigating this.

My girlfriend has an iPad and does everything on it, including photo editing. She does most things in Safari, even, I can't get her to use things there are native apps for, like YouTube and Google. Another friend of mine, who has a rippin' Mac Pro tower for Pro Tools, prefers his iPhone 6s for everything else, and I mean video editing, photo editing, screenplay writing, everything.

I sometimes feel like a dinosaur for doing so much using, you know, a regular desktop Windows 10 computer. People ask me if I saw this or that that they posted on Instagram and I say not yet. I would browse Instagram more often if Instagram worked better in a damn browser. You still can't upload pictures from anything but a mobile device. I have some fun pictures I'd like to put up, but sometimes not taken with a phone, and I just don't stare at the thing as much as I do the 'puter. And I like to throw a bit of cropping and color correction on my photos, which I do using GIMP.

Now, as a veteran IT guy, a few words about the clinging to Windows 7 phenomenon. I was a later adopter, mostly because my behind the curve computers worked, and I got cantankerous about Microsoft putting that unwanted tray icon on my system. What tipped it was Noel and Jon telling me that BandLab were no longer interested in active support for Windows 7.

I upgraded my oldest system, and wonder of wonders, it actually seemed to work better than it did before, and a bunch of hardware that I couldn't get to work under Windows 7, like my old Canon scanner, started to work again. I had put an SSD in this because it was an older computer. Windows 10 must have a fast system drive. The first rule of Windows 10 is that it must have a fast system drive.

My laptop, running 7 Pro, so went to 10 Pro, also great. 7200RPM spinny. The main system, however, has been more problematic. I'm still working on that, and I'm finding out that part of the issue was that Windows 10's behavior exposed a hardware issue on my system. I'm learning a lot about Windows 10 system optimization. I'm glad I made the upgrade, and consider it an upgrade for sure. One thing it does that I really do not like, it writes a LOT of logfiles, but these can be turned off. I'm going to post about this in the regular forum as a tuning tip.

As far as staying with Windows 7, what's the big deal about "OMG, I'm not going to get security updates from Microsoft, so I must airgap my system from the internet!" I'm open to new information, what disastrous outcome do you imagine from having a computer system operated by you, connected to the internet, but no longer getting security updates from Microsoft? I presume that the system in question is mostly dedicated to DAW usage, so doesn't contain any sensitive information like email messages or personal documents, and since we're cautious about data loss, we're meticulously backing everything up. So tell me: what happens to systems connected to the internet that aren't getting patches from Microsoft?

You want to know what my protection against malware is? I don't open executable email attachments. I run Malwarebytes on an ad hoc basis to clear the occasional browser hijack. And In 35 years of using computers, Windows 10 is the first time I've every had a permanently resident anti-malware program running, and that's because Microsoft forces it on you as part of the OS. I have, in all those years, gotten exactly one virus, 20 years ago, when I broke my rule about running sketchy downloaded executables. Hey, I thought it was an archive. I should have scanned it first.

Since being on Windows 10, I have had this Coyote/Roadrunner battle with Windows Defender's Realtime Scanning. I found a way to turn it off permanently using Group Policy Editor, which I had to figure out how to enable on Windows 10 Home, then Microsoft figured out how to get around it and an update turned realtime scanning back on. Currently they are winning, but I'm working on a fix. My computer, my rules. In the meantime, at least I can exclude my audio and plug-in folders.

Edited by Starship Krupa

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For me the concern in Win7 is more some theoretical zero day coming up that renders that system exploitable, and then that is used to traverse the network to a place where the sensitive data actually lives.  Odds are small but I was paid to be paranoid for a long time and still have those reflexes.  Given my network topology, it would take a targeted attack to get very far...but I have similar concerns for IoT devices like my whiz bang LED light bulbs that can be controllled via wifi.  So I have a seperate IoT Wifi environment for those things...because you cant spell "Idiot" without IoT...

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