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Can I copy leading or trailing MIDI notes that overlap the selection?

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I saw this feature in 2021.01

"Arranger section inclusion of outlying MIDI notes. When dragging sections or committing arrangements, Cakewalk has logic for dealing with leading/trailing MIDI notes that overlap section boundaries."

Sometimes I want to copy a midi piano from Verse 2 to Verse 1. If it starts on or near the downbeat of the selection, I quantize beat 1 so the piano is exactly on beat 1, because if I don't and the piano starts even 1 click before beat 1 it won't copy.

Apparently the Arranger feature solves this. I've never used the Arranger, so I'm not sure if I should try to use this in this situation or if there's a way to copy a piano track  with leading/trailing MIDI notes that overlap the selection boundaries and paste it to Verse 1.

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I tried exactly this with the Arranger, but I had no success! It seems I am too dull to use the Arranger 😆!

So I think the easiest way to copy a MIDI part/clip with overlapping notes is to extend the selection for the copy a bit (1/16, 1/32) and then position the now time accordingly for the paste! This is much easier and more reliable.

Playing a bit with the Arranger I was totally confused, because inserting sections was depending on the selection in the arranger window and not on the now time, strange! Also the necessary committment is unusual for me if I delete a section with Ripple Edit 'All' and the measures are still there! I think I will pass on the Arranger and still use the usual copy/paste/delete with or without Ripple Edit. This satisfies my needs and seems more logic to me! I think for such simple things the Arranger is absolutely an overkill!

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1 hour ago, marled said:

I tried exactly this with the Arranger, but I had no success! It seems I am too dull to use the Arranger 😆!

So I think the easiest way to copy a MIDI part/clip with overlapping notes is to extend the selection for the copy a bit (1/16, 1/32) and then position the now time accordingly for the paste! This is much easier and more reliable.

Playing a bit with the Arranger I was totally confused, because inserting sections was depending on the selection in the arranger window and not on the now time, strange! Also the necessary committment is unusual for me if I delete a section with Ripple Edit 'All' and the measures are still there! I think I will pass on the Arranger and still use the usual copy/paste/delete with or without Ripple Edit. This satisfies my needs and seems more logic to me! I think for such simple things the Arranger is absolutely an overkill!

 I love the ripple editing. It's a huge addition. I guess using the 1/16 or 1/32 before the spot it'll be good especially if I set the nudge to 1/32. Then it's easier to find the beginning spot and find the target. I think I'll try that next time.

 

 I just installed the new 2021.01 update last night, it lists several improvement to the Arranger. Maybe it'll work better for you. I hope some one else replies that has had success with it.

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8 hours ago, gmp said:

I love the ripple editing. It's a huge addition. I guess using the 1/16 or 1/32 before the spot it'll be good especially if I set the nudge to 1/32. Then it's easier to find the beginning spot and find the target. I think I'll try that next time.

This will work. But I forgot to mention that there is another cool possibility in CbB:

  1. Set 'Snap' temporary to 'by' and enabled.
  2. Copy the clip by clicking 'Ctrl + Shift + Mouse move'. Let the mouse drop happen at about the position you want to.
  3. Don't forget to change the 'Snap' setting back to 'to'!

This method preserves uneven clip positions in moves or copies. But it can only be used if you want to copy a whole clip, otherwise the clip must first be split for the copy operation.

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8 hours ago, gmp said:

 I just installed the new 2021.01 update last night, it lists several improvement to the Arranger. Maybe it'll work better for you. I hope some one else replies that has had success with it.

I have also installed the latest release to test the Arranger!

But what I have seen that does not generate any desire to use it! Just in a few minutes I caused a couple of strange/unexpected behaviors, it even broke the Ripple Edit behavior! And not at least, I could not disable it for the test project anymore!

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6 hours ago, marled said:

I have also installed the latest release to test the Arranger!

But what I have seen that does not generate any desire to use it! Just in a few minutes I caused a couple of strange/unexpected behaviors, it even broke the Ripple Edit behavior! And not at least, I could not disable it for the test project anymore!

 Man it's good it was a test project. If I ever try to use it, I'll rename the cwp, so I don't lose anything. Either Arranger is buggy or we need help in understanding how to use it 

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Personally, I use a value of 1/128 or less, as for most cases I'm only worried about human errors in performance.  Anything larger, and it starts to pick up notes I don't want it to.

Ripple edit is temporarily disabled for most arranger operations. So it shouldn't "break" ripple edit behaviour... the arranger has its own ripple edit functionality.

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17 hours ago, marled said:

...if I delete a section with Ripple Edit 'All' and the measures are still there! I think I will pass on the Arranger and still use the usual copy/paste/delete with or without Ripple Edit. This satisfies my needs and seems more logic to me! I think for such simple things the Arranger is absolutely an overkill!

@marled - can you PM me a project where this is happening for you, along with instructions on how to repro?

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40 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

@marled - can you PM me a project where this is happening for you, along with instructions on how to repro?

I did reproduce the case and it worked (as it should not). But when I wanted to make screen pictures (before/after) of it, I used undo made the "before" screen picture, then tried to remake it (manually, not with redo), the error did not happen! I made a new project and tried again. In the 3rd or 4th new project the error happened again, but an undo and retry removed the error again.

So it seems to me that it is not the project itself, but something in the way I do it. I have to investigate to find that out.

By the way, when I tried to reproduce in a new project, there was another issue. I had a MIDI track with a clip starting a bit before measure 3. Then I opened the Arranger, added one section, another section and when I added the 3rd section, then the clip was moved! Very strange! But the same, I could not reproduce this anymore. I am not 100% sure, but I think some of these issues were caused, because there was suddenly an Arranger section selected when it should not and therefore the operations did not follow the usual logic!

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20 minutes ago, marled said:

I did reproduce the case and it worked (as it should not). But when I wanted to make screen pictures (before/after) of it, I used undo made the "before" screen picture, then tried to remake it (manually, not with redo), the error did not happen! I made a new project and tried again. In the 3rd or 4th new project the error happened again, but an undo and retry removed the error again.

So it seems to me that it is not the project itself, but something in the way I do it. I have to investigate to find that out.

By the way, when I tried to reproduce in a new project, there was another issue. I had a MIDI track with a clip starting a bit before measure 3. Then I opened the Arranger, added one section, another section and when I added the 3rd section, then the clip was moved! Very strange! But the same, I could not reproduce this anymore. I am not 100% sure, but I think some of these issues were caused, because there was suddenly an Arranger section selected when it should not and therefore the operations did not follow the usual logic!

Thanks for the update.

I think the clip moving after adding the 3rd section could be a mouse glitch (perhaps a dirty left mouse button?) - i.e. the mouse button was let go, then the section selected when you continued trying to size it/move it... so it moved the clip as well.

I pretty much always switch off "Select Clips with Articulations" when adding sections just to avoid this kind of issue. We've added this as a button on the select tool so this is much easier to switch on/off.

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2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I think the clip moving after adding the 3rd section could be a mouse glitch (perhaps a dirty left mouse button?) - i.e. the mouse button was let go, then the section selected when you continued trying to size it/move it... so it moved the clip as well.

Actually this is highly possible, because I am absolutly not a virtuoso with the mouse! 😄

Sorry, even if this is not the right place, but often I wished the bar in the time ruler could be increased in height. It is really a pain to look into the clip for finding the right position and clicking into the time ruler at the same time. Often I click off target!

And shame on me, but when trying to find out more about the issues above, I stumbled across 2 other issues with the Arranger:

  1. I inserted a small MIDI clip with 2 notes starting a 2:04:893 and 2:04:903 and one note 3:03:860 (length 1:200, i.e. overlapping into measure 4).
  2. Arranger Event Overlap Threshold set to 1/16.
  3. Then I added 3 sections (each one measure) in the arranger.

Issues (this time always reproducable):

  1. When I delete section #2 the first two notes are deleted, although they only slightly overlap into this section. Is this as designed? I would not expect this (who would?), because the major part of those notes are in section #3.
  2. The deletion left a gap in the Arranger bar over measure #2. If I now move section #3 forward to measure #2 (the gap), then the remaining clip under section #3 is not moved. (I tested also: If there is another section behind #3, then the clip is moved as it should!)

a) The MIDI clip with the 3 Arranger sections:

arranger1.png.c7f84922efe9fe4cccc24dc95b0c6fd2.png

b) Section #2 deleted (the 2 first overlapping notes are removed):

arranger2.png.24184b947e2e9f592e05c4bd56a40d00.png

c) Section #3 moved to the left, but the clip is not moved:

arranger3.png.e0702a225002c2ff2787a43c9bb6c53d.png

 

21 hours ago, marled said:

I tried exactly this with the Arranger, but I had no success! It seems I am too dull to use the Arranger 😆!

Here's something I found out about my conclusion that I was not able to copy an Arranger section with overlapping notes (the initial subject of this thread):

  1. If I set the Overlap Threshold to 1/16 and copy a section with overlapping notes by using Ctrl+Shift+Mouse drag, then it runs perfectly! 👍
  2. But if I left click the source section and select "Copy", and then select the section at the target position and use "Paste", then the the overlappings are being cut (both at the beginning and at the ending)! 👎
Edited by marled

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Firstly, the overlapped notes only applies to arranger specific operations - in other words, dragging arranger sections with the mouse.
The standard Cut/Copy/Delete/Paste commands don't look at overlapping notes.

Deleting Section 2
Unless you did a right-click delete on the section itself, when you deleted section 2, this was using the standard delete function. The starts of the notes were in the bounds of section 2, so they got deleted.  This is how delete has always worked with MIDI clips, and is to be expected.

I'm assuming you don't have "Split Midi Notes" checked? If you did, then the notes would have been split at the start of section 3. 

As it stands, because you didn't split the notes, you can slip edit the clip under section 3 to the left and the notes will re-appear.

Moving Section 3
Are you certain the clip was selected when you instigated the move? Remember clicking on the section toggles section only / section + clips behaviour.

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10 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Firstly, the overlapped notes only applies to arranger specific operations - in other words, dragging arranger sections with the mouse.
The standard Cut/Copy/Delete/Paste commands don't look at overlapping notes.

I guessed this also! That's why I used then the right click menu ON THE SECTION (copy and paste)! And this didn't work either!

11 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Deleting Section 2
Unless you did a right-click delete on the section itself, when you deleted section 2, this was using the standard delete function. The starts of the notes were in the bounds of section 2, so they got deleted.  This is how delete has always worked with MIDI clips, and is to be expected.

I'm assuming you don't have "Split Midi Notes" checked? If you did, then the notes would have been split at the start of section 3. 

As it stands, because you didn't split the notes, you can slip edit the clip under section 3 to the left and the notes will re-appear.

I used the right-click delete on the section itself (I have retried today)! I have checked, "Split MIDI Notes" is enabled!

11 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Moving Section 3
Are you certain the clip was selected when you instigated the move? Remember clicking on the section toggles section only / section + clips behaviour.

Okay, I found the problem:

  • If I first click on the section separately (clip is selected now) and then move the section, it works!
  • But if I click on the section and directly drag to move it, then it doesn't work!

My technical assumption: It seems that the selection of the clips underlying the section (caused by the click) is processed after the drag in the 2nd case, that's why it does not work!

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 I would be nice if our cut, copy, and paste function had this feature that Arranger has:

 "set the Overlap Threshold to 1/16 and copy a section with overlapping notes by using Ctrl+Shift+Mouse drag,"

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18 hours ago, marled said:

I used the right-click delete on the section itself (I have retried today)! I have checked, "Split MIDI Notes" is enabled!

Okay, I found the problem:

  • If I first click on the section separately (clip is selected now) and then move the section, it works!
  • But if I click on the section and directly drag to move it, then it doesn't work!

My technical assumption: It seems that the selection of the clips underlying the section (caused by the click) is processed after the drag in the 2nd case, that's why it does not work!

If you click on the section first, that seems to enable the "Select Events with Sections" option (now a button in the Control Bar).  But if you hover over the section instead and delete, then the clip is not selected, so its contents are unchanged.  But the Event  Overlap Threshold does affect the results even if the clip is selected.   Try a small value like 1/256 and see if that helps avoid removing those notes, instead trimming the start of the clip (and the overlapping notes) to the end of the deleted section/bar line.

If all that makes sense, maybe that's the same behavior you're seeing when moving the section - if not explicitly selected first, then the clip isn't selected either.

 

 

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11 hours ago, SteveC said:

But if you hover over the section instead and delete, then the clip is not selected, so its contents are unchanged.

I do not just hover over the section! I do a right click on it to open the menu and then select the 'Delete' action. In most Windows applications the right click (open menu) performs also a selection of the object.

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Right, that's what I meant.   Right-clicking requires that you hover over the section graphic first, but you're not left-clicking to actually select it. 

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