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Izotope releases Neoverb - introduction deal

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, pwalpwal said:

so, yes?

Every type of effect has a limit, but I think there is plenty of room for improvement in the reverb space.  Very few are world class and process efficient.

Edited by Brian Walton

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1 minute ago, Brian Walton said:

Every type of effect has a limit, but I think there is plenty of room for improvement in the reverb space.  Very few are world class and process efficient.

that's marketing speak - e.g., what do you mean by "world class"? we're engineers not schoolboys :)

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Just now, pwalpwal said:

that's marketing speak - e.g., what do you mean by "world class"? we're engineers not schoolboys :)

Something that actually sounds like natural reverberation applied to a source.

Very few really sound like that, have full tweakability  and don't muddy up a mix as you apply it.

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IRL, the effect of reverb is also highly dependent on source placement in the space. A few feet off center can change the dynamic dramatically. Whispering walls are an interesting effect which result from curved walls as in rotundas. Concrete stairwells have a fun effect in them as well. Because of placement, reverb will not sound as natural on a mix as it will a source, and the off center portion ups the computing power, especially when taking into consideration a room the is not a "box." IRs for different placements in the same space are not common to find.

Oddly enough, digital recording centers on dry mixes and faking the space after the fact, but many studios and halls are sought after specifically for their reverb character. The issue with those is cost and editing options being limited.

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Posted (edited)

Does anyone have a simple rule of thumb regarding applying reverb as inserts to individual tracks or instruments vs. using a reverb bus and sending  to a common reverb to get a natural "space" for the mix?

If both techniques are used, then how best to avoid getting muddy when the mix is glued together?

I'm not intending to get all mired down in EQ and other mixing details here, just referring to a general strategy for application of the of reverb.

Off-topic, but assumed that since so many reverb lovers here, thought it a good opportunity to take advantage of some free advice! 😁

Edited by abacab
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34 minutes ago, abacab said:

Does anyone have a simple rule of thumb regarding applying reverb as inserts to individual tracks or instruments vs. using a reverb bus and sending  to a common reverb to get a natural "space" for the mix?

rbowser had a nice generic walk-through from 2006 that is still applicable. The comment about reverb giving the perception of far away is valid. How he talks of setup is good, especially for beginners (with sends/busses). No real "rule of thumb" with that part. He hints at using other reverbs (on other reverb busses), but doesn't go into that detail.

Being sparing in reverb usage is a good guide (depending on genre). Comments like "dial up till you can barely notice it, then back it off" is often good advice for anything front and center. Other than that, no real "rules," but be mindful that reverb is like a "frequency smear." If you go overboard, you will often negate any EQ you took the time to do prior (i.e., the mud). For this reason, any time-based FX should be last in the signal chain in most instances.

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14 minutes ago, mettelus said:

rbowser had a nice generic walk-through from 2006 that is still applicable. The comment about reverb giving the perception of far away is valid. How he talks of setup is good, especially for beginners (with sends/busses). No real "rule of thumb" with that part. He hints at using other reverbs (on other reverb busses), but doesn't go into that detail.

Being sparing in reverb usage is a good guide (depending on genre). Comments like "dial up till you can barely notice it, then back it off" is often good advice for anything front and center. Other than that, no real "rules," but be mindful that reverb is like a "frequency smear." If you go overboard, you will often negate any EQ you took the time to do prior (i.e., the mud). For this reason, any time-based FX should be last in the signal chain in most instances.

That's a good post! Food for thought. Thanks! My motivation in asking the question was really about seeking a standard technique to reduce mud.

One idea presented in that walk-through was that you could even use multiple busses with different reverbs on each as separate "spaces", and then selectively send drums to one room, strings to another, etc. That could definitely get creative with some projects!

And then scook chimes in to suggest using delays instead of reverbs in some instances where delay can add space without the mush.

In any case it sounds like less is more!

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The mud issue may also be coming from low end that really shouldn't be passed into the FX chain (and especially to time-based FX). A HPF is common to use on instruments early in mixing to remove that low end. Same principle to dial in till you hear it bite, then back off a smidge. This is also why reverb on the bass/kick is not common, or needs special consideration.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, mettelus said:

The mud issue may also be coming from low end that really shouldn't be passed into the FX chain (and especially to time-based FX). A HPF is common to use on instruments early in mixing to remove that low end. Same principle to dial in till you hear it bite, then back off a smidge. This is also why reverb on the bass/kick is not common, or needs special consideration.

I'm not trying to fix mix mud in general. I'm just looking for techniques to prevent reverb induced mud, where possibly more than one reverb is involved.

Best answers I've seen so far are to not run your entire mix through the reverb, as that would also also affect your bass and drums and everything else in your mix the same way, and to possibly just send select instruments to separate reverbs via busses. The busses would allow for custom  EQ on each reverb bus if you used a separate bus for each instrument type.

Edited by abacab
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, abacab said:

I'm not trying to fix mix mud in general. I'm just looking for techniques to prevent reverb induced mud, where possibly more than one reverb is involved.

Best answers I've seen so far are to not run your entire mix through the reverb, as that would also also affect your bass and drums and everything else in your mix the same way, and to possibly just send select instruments to separate reverbs via busses. The busses would allow for custom  EQ on each reverb bus if you used a separate bus for each instrument type.

Lots of different approaches out there.

If I'm trying to avoid Mud then I'll put Phoenix (which can be super transparent) on a bus and then send things to it at various levels.

Then specific sources might get a different reverb if required (via track or bus)....but this step always leads to more mud  - though sometimes you have to deal with it as a trade off.  Some Reverbs will also let you roll off the low end of the reverb trail, that also is helpful to get rid of mud.  

 

The kind of reverb and the settings can have a huge impact on "mud"  Phoenix is fantastic for that kind of transparent sound (but you know when you turn it off) thing.  

 

I like reverb as an effect though and have no problem sacrificing some mud to get some texture on most of what I do.  But if I'm really going for the it was recorded raw type of mix, the above is the route.

Edited by Brian Walton

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1 hour ago, abacab said:

I'm not trying to fix mix mud in general. I'm just looking for techniques to prevent reverb induced mud, where possibly more than one reverb is involved.

Best answers I've seen so far are to not run your entire mix through the reverb, as that would also also affect your bass and drums and everything else in your mix the same way, and to possibly just send select instruments to separate reverbs via busses. The busses would allow for custom  EQ on each reverb bus if you used a separate bus for each instrument type.

Phoenix, which is known for natural characteristics is the only verb I'd reach for to use on an individual track, the mixbus or mastering.

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Tried the demo & the reverb sounds as expected since it from M. Carnes.  I was surprised by the AI,  very useful for setting up a reverb quickly & got some great results. Worth checking out.

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On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 3:15 PM, mettelus said:

rbowser had a nice generic walk-through from 2006 that is still applicable. The comment about reverb giving the perception of far away is valid. How he talks of setup is good, especially for beginners (with sends/busses). No real "rule of thumb" with that part. He hints at using other reverbs (on other reverb busses), but doesn't go into that detail.

Being sparing in reverb usage is a good guide (depending on genre). Comments like "dial up till you can barely notice it, then back it off" is often good advice for anything front and center. Other than that, no real "rules," but be mindful that reverb is like a "frequency smear." If you go overboard, you will often negate any EQ you took the time to do prior (i.e., the mud). For this reason, any time-based FX should be last in the signal chain in most instances.

Thanks for posting that link Mettelus, very useful info. 

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1 hour ago, Hidden Symmetry said:

Tried the demo & the reverb sounds as expected since it from M. Carnes.  I was surprised by the AI,  very useful for setting up a reverb quickly & got some great results. Worth checking out.

This is what I was thinking when I read the info on it. That and based on my experience with Neutron I was thinking that this may be helpful to me in setting up some reverb without going overboard.

Thanks for the mini review!!

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I dropped the Neoverb trial into my workflow and quickly fell in love. So I upgraded to MPS4 tonight. I now have all-access at Groove 3 until 9/22/22. Wonder if that's enough time for me to actually go watch some tutorials?

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That's a point - I'd forgotten that MPS4 comes with a year of Groove3.  Does anyone know if the iZotope code extends an existing annual pass by a year, or if it starts the moment you enter it (thereby 'wasting' the time left on an existing annual pass)?

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22 minutes ago, antler said:

That's a point - I'd forgotten that MPS4 comes with a year of Groove3.  Does anyone know if the iZotope code extends an existing annual pass by a year, or if it starts the moment you enter it (thereby 'wasting' the time left on an existing annual pass)?

it extends - so you're good to go :)

 

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